The Jefferson Cumberbatch Column – Crime, Punishment and the Rule of Law

Jeff Cumberbatch – Chairman of the FTC and Deputy Dean, Law Faculty, UWI, Cave Hill

 

The caller was insistent in his suggestion that day, the moderator equally so. It was a couple weeks ago when a caller to “Brass Tacks” tried to convince the moderator, Mr. David Ellis, and the rest of the audience that since it had seemingly become impossible to execute convicted murderers by hanging them, the state might consider amputation of the very hand that had committed the dastardly deed as a suitably dissuasive punishment.

He would not be deterred from this opinion and Mr. Ellis’s various ripostes that it sounded too much like Sharia law; that it was not cultural and that it simply would not fly locally were all to no avail. For my part, I would have remarked that such a punishment would be inhuman and degrading and thus prima facie unconstitutional [see section 15 of the Barbados Constitution] but I am certain that the caller would have sought to argue in response that it would be no less so than execution by hanging itself.

It might have been then too much to explain that execution by hanging is whether mandatorily ordered or carried out after “any” delay is an express exception to this protection under section 15(2) and (3).

The caller’s suggestion is consistent with the view of many Barbadians that any misconduct should be met with the harshest possible penalty if it is to deter others of like intention from behaving similarly or, as Voltaire once so elegantly put it in a different context, “pour encourager les autres”. And given the incidents of reckless gunplay on Kadooment night on Spring Garden and on Friday in the Fairchild Street Bus Terminal, where gunmen in both instances fired into a crowd in order to kill or wound others (successfully in the former instance), and the recent spate of shooting deaths, public discourse has once again turned to the application of the death penalty as a punishment for murder.

This reaction is understandable. The instinct for revenge is inherent in most of us and in light of our cultural penchant for adhering to the Old Testament injunctions, such as Exodus 21:23-25 –“And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe…” the notion of the State murdering murderers for their offence is entirely apposite.

Hence, at least the first element of this edict is taken literally in these parts. Never mind that other condign punishments are prescribed therein to which we do not adhere, or that the later Christian teaching in Matthew 5: 38-41significantly recants this – “Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain”, or that Mahatma Gandhi offers the sage advice that following this advice to the letter means that everyone will eventually be blind. The local attitude, when faced with this dissonance is to revert to type and argue that “hanging” is still on the statute books and thus eminently lawful.

This might partly explain why one prominent local cleric is quoted in another section of the press during last week as calling for the resumption of the death penalty on one page and for prayer on a subsequent one as the answer to our present pass -“May God forgive you, I won’t”?

That hanging is still on the books is true to some extent. As I demonstrated above, the Constitution permits the mandatory execution of convicted murderers by hanging as provided in the Offences against the Person Act at any time after their conviction as a qualification to the individual fundamental right not to be subjected to inhuman and degrading punishment. This is further fortified by the notorious section 26 of the Constitution, re-enacted in section 15(2), that immunizes any statutory provision that existed as law prior to 1966 and that has not been since altered from allegations of incompatibility with the fundamental rights provisions.

This is part only of the actuality however. Barbados has also voluntarily ratified, in an exercise of its sovereign status, a number of conventions and treaties that rigidly proscribe and, in some cases, negative the execution of convicted murders. This ratification, while it binds the State only to conduct its affairs in accordance with the provisions of the treaties and does not thereby create local obligations, also creates a legitimate expectation in the convicted individual that he should be entitled to pray these obligations in aid of his attempt to have his right to life recognized.

As Justice Wit of the CCJ said in AG et al. v Joseph v Boyce (2006):

On close scrutiny, it is clear that the right to petition the Inter-American Commission exists whether or not it is authorised or implemented by national legislation. Any person in Barbados, or elsewhere, who wants to lodge a petition, can do so. The State cannot prevent anyone from initiating these proceedings…

Accordingly, the absence of domestic legislation normally does not pose a problem. However, if the State were to act in such a manner as to render the international procedure illusory, as for example where the petitioner is a death row prisoner whom the State decides to hang without allowing a reasonable time for his petition before the Inter-American bodies to be concluded, problems do arise. It would seem rather obvious that the State should not act in this way. States are bound to perform the treaties which they have ratified in good faith. This obligation, it would seem to me, prohibits the State from pre-empting the outcome of pending legal processes by executive action, a general legal principle that also exists in the common law: see Thomas v Baptiste.”

Not that I am fooling myself to believe that Barbadians are even prepared to be convinced by these dicta. Only this week I overheard the moderator on another call in programme suggesting that the State should ignore international treaty obligations, human rights bodies and, presumably, the rule of law and simply execute convicted murderers since, in effect, dead men tell no tales and therefore cannot lay claim to any fundamental rights.

The nub of similar twaddle pervades the entire local public discourse. I am not certain how many of my readers have read the recent CCJ decision on the admissibility of uncorroborated oral confessions as proof of commission of an offence, but the two accused in that case were sentenced to death in the High Court and had their appeals dismissed by the Court of Appeal.

There are a few wags who carp at the practices of criminal defence and human rights attorneys in Barbados, some going so far as to accuse them of complicity in the current state of crime in the island. How many of them, I wonder, would have rued the deaths by mandatory order for the hanging of these two youngsters on the sole basis of the subsequently impugned and unlawful confessions?

It is said that most lawyers and legally trained individuals are against the execution of the death penalty. This in itself may be an overstatement, but I think most of us know that our system of justice is not perfect and that it is far better for ten guilty men to go free than it is for one innocent man to be wrongfully put to death.

No one seeks to condone murder, but is this any more likely to be foreclosed by the hanging of the perpetrators rather than seeking the prevention of the event in the first place, however difficult such a task may be?

To be continued…

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60 Comments on “The Jefferson Cumberbatch Column – Crime, Punishment and the Rule of Law”

  1. Dentistry Whisperer (M. Pharm. D) LinkedIN August 13, 2017 at 7:10 AM #

    Wa-loss! Hanging? Is the next step removing their skin when they are still alive? Hanging does not work. Another wild tamarind will sprout from where you killed the mudder!Haynes Darlington (M. Pharm. D) Canada.

    Like

  2. Well Well & Consequences Observing Blogger. August 13, 2017 at 7:24 AM #

    Hanging is pointless.

    I remember when TT hung around nine men years ago, Dole Chaddee and his gang, for murdering a whoke family.

    Has it deterred murders or crimes in Trinidad in the 20 plus years since then.

    There was such a spike in crime in the last few years there, it left many wondering if they had ever hung anyone.

    Like

  3. David August 13, 2017 at 7:52 AM #

    Today’s talk show will feature crime (gun violence).

    Like

  4. Bush Tea August 13, 2017 at 7:58 AM #

    @ Jeff
    Boss, why do you not concentrate on things that you actually understand nuh?

    When you delve into these complex SPIRITUAL matters, all you do is expose the shallowness of your profession …and explain the complete disarray of our legal system.

    If, as you confess, you DO NOT believe in God – or that the bible is his word, then you should refrain from attempts to interpret that word in your writings.
    Bushie would NEVER quote ‘Froon’, Trump or angela …. except in derision…

    The purpose of the Death Penalty is NOT to deter murder, to satisfy revenge, or to appease victims.
    The SOLE purpose of the death penalty is to establish UP FRONT for all concerned, the VALUE of human life in a society. It sets a spiritual STANDARD of values that says essentially, that the society holds human life in such high esteem, …. that the ULTIMATE PENALTY WILL be applied to anyone who deliberately and maliciously disrespects that spiritual VALUE.

    This sets a TONE for a society.

    Any logic that seeks to counter this value is therefore saying that the society does NOT think enough about innocent members being murdered …to apply such a drastic penalty – and the tone then becomes one where ‘murder’ is ‘no big thing’
    ….which is what we now have -thanks to others like you…

    The Bible – for your information- says that there should be “an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth” – in the Old Testament. (punishment should be commensurate with the crime)
    Jesus (bushman that he was) when pressed on this, said that we should ‘do unto others as we would want them to do unto us’….

    You passed the 11+ exam, so you are possible able to decipher that he is saying THE SAME EXACT SHIITE…. except that he even extends the commensurate response – even into the INTENT of the participants.
    ….in short, “Juck out HIS eye ….IF you are willing to have YOUR eye JUCKED out…”
    “MURDER him …. if you are also happy to be murdered in return.”

    If there is anything else that you would like explained, please let Bushie know…. preferably BEFORE you publish.

    Like

  5. David August 13, 2017 at 8:05 AM #

    The more pragmatic discussion is how can Barbados ‘unhitched’ from international treaties we have signed on to IF a Barbados government became so inclined to hand a man (or woman).

    Like

  6. Bush Tea August 13, 2017 at 8:24 AM #

    @ David
    What EXACTLY do you not understand about ‘TOO LATE?”

    The world has entered a phase of evil ..and we are caught lock, stock and barrel in the middle of it.
    We owe EVERYBODY …. and cannot possibly ever repay. This means that we have NO POWER to act unilaterally on ANYTHING.

    We CANNOT revert to hanging….or corporal punishment …. or even demanding respect for teachers.
    We CANNOT stop the legalisation of bulling… or same sex ‘marriages’…
    We do, however make marijuana illegal – so that the drug barons can fetch a good price..

    Put simply, IT IS TOO LATE….
    The last chance to act would have been when Arthur was doing shiite with CSME …and borrowing heater skelter to buy bling…

    The challenge now is on personal survival and that means finding out where the lifeboat is at….

    Like

  7. Exclaimer August 13, 2017 at 8:40 AM #

    Bush Tea,

    The lifeboat is in the UK. Come spend sometime with Hal and i and i and the millions of refugees who have made there way to this great country!

    Like

  8. Bush Tea August 13, 2017 at 9:00 AM #

    @ Exclaimer
    Sorry to be the one to break the news to you boss, but when the shit REALLY hits the fan, those of you in the UK and North America will be rushing back to Bim as a lifeboat…. …somewhat like reaching for a floating piece of ‘Bajan furniture’ after the Titanic goes down..

    There is the ‘Bajan Titanic’ on which we focus here on BU, and then there is the Global Titanic which we can all see floundering under equally BAD ‘captainship’…
    … it will be ‘bad’ all over boss.

    We have sowed the wind…. globally….
    Prepare for the global whirlwind.

    Like

  9. angela Skeeye August 13, 2017 at 9:15 AM #

    i dont t worry about deterrent , i stake my claim on punishment and the PUNISHMENT MUST FIT THE CRIME
    However on the various legalities the article makes a clear and convincing point in regards to Human Rights and Punishment
    However within the Justice System proper procedure within the law is given sufficient time to eliminate and correct those problems that would interfere unjustly with the accused human Rights as was in the case of the two men who were recently released
    So this thinking of a by gone yesterday era of one individual being wrongly accused is in itself a red herring and smoke and signal which flies in the face of many laws that firstly seek to protect the human rights of the accused for years at taxpayers expense
    If one takes a close look at the justice system in many internationals country those that barbados has signed on to treaties ,these same counties have not abolished the death penalty but have taken proper measurement guided by human right laws so as to protect the rights of every accused and if in the final analysis when all proper procedures have been met the laws meant to adhere punishment as way of remedy for state and victim is applied be it death or other means as justified or regulated by laws on the Books
    So the only error which comes to mind is an error against the victim family who must learn to how to live absorb a criminal of violence on themselves and love ones while the accused human Rights are tightly secured which guaranteeing another chance of starting a new life all over again if not executed
    My question where does the Justice and Human Rights for the victim begins

    Like

  10. Jeff Cumberbatch August 13, 2017 at 9:24 AM #

    The Bible – for your information- says that there should be “an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth” – in the Old Testament. (punishment should be commensurate with the crime)
    Jesus (bushman that he was) when pressed on this, said that we should ‘do unto others as we would want them to do unto us’….

    @ BushTea, Your misinterpretation of the latter text avails nothing. When pressed on “this” what? He was directly responding to the OT injunction in the quote I cited. Which do you believe? Retaliation or forgiveness?

    You do not have any monopoly on the meaning of the Bible except by your own self acclaim and bombast. I am not impressed by that!

    Like

  11. Jeff Cumberbatch August 13, 2017 at 9:27 AM #

    The more pragmatic discussion is how can Barbados ‘unhitched’ from international treaties we have signed on to IF a Barbados government became so inclined to hand a man (or woman)

    @David, This is treated in Part II next week.

    Like

  12. Talking Loud Saying Nothing August 13, 2017 at 9:27 AM #

    @ Jeff,

    Where are our Danny Glovers? I’m referring to the wealthy elite who are not afraid to speak out when they witness an injustice been committed.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/aug/12/nissan-union-vote-danny-glover-bernie-sanders-france

    Like

  13. angela Skeete August 13, 2017 at 9:35 AM #

    BEfore david eliminates my post please note the above post angela Skeeye August 13, 2017 at 9:15 AM # was submitted by angela Skeete

    Like

  14. Jeff Cumberbatch August 13, 2017 at 9:40 AM #

    *Jeff,

    Where are our Danny Glovers? I’m referring to the wealthy elite who are not afraid to speak out when they witness an injustice been committed.*

    @TLSN, are you including me in that select category of the “wealthy elite”?

    Like

  15. Money Brain, August 13, 2017 at 9:42 AM #

    Bushie wrote,
    Sorry to be the one to break the news to you boss, but when the shit REALLY hits the fan, those of you in the UK and North America will be rushing back to Bim as a lifeboat…. …somewhat like reaching for a floating piece of ‘Bajan furniture’ after the Titanic goes down..

    Only if there is no heat in TO or Florida is uninhabitable. Bim may not be able to buy enough food and then the guns will be really used.
    Bushie, when NthAm goes down I would suggest that Bdos will be far deeper.

    If we emigrants dont remit Bimmers in deep shit!

    Invoking my inner Johnnie Cochcran.

    Like

  16. Bush Tea August 13, 2017 at 9:46 AM #

    @ Jeff
    First of all, Bushie is NOT trying to ‘impress you’…. else he would focus on you known intelligence and academic acumen….

    Secondly, Bushie does NOT claim any monopoly on the meaning of the bible… just to have a whacker ….one that makes every shiite MUCH clearer….. and since YOU claim to not believe the bible anyway, the bushman don’t feel anyway about criticising you (or anyone else for that matter…)

    Now! ….in the section that you quoted, you may want to note that Jesus was talking to his bushmen disciples….
    Basically he was telling them that despite the clearly written ‘law’ as they had all been taught, THEIR OWN spiritual standards had to be MUCH HIGHER….

    …for example, he admonished them that while the law says that ‘Thou shall not kill….’
    .. his expectations of them is that they will not even become ANGRY ….far less to harm or (God forbid) ever kill anyone.

    …he told them that the ‘Law’ stipulated that they do not make FALSE oaths…. But he suggested that as bushmen – they do not make ANY oaths at all….

    (Then for your example), he said that if someone kicked you in the donkey, you have the legal RIGHT to kick their ass in return….. BUT AS BUSHMEN, he expected them to turn the other side of the donkey…and invite another kick instead…

    Do you get it yet….?

    There is the ‘Law’ that defines societal standards….
    …and then there are bushmen …whose standards are MUCH higher, more spiritual, and certainly much less focused on the physical and materialistic.

    ….besides, if yuh have a whacker you can afford to turn the other cheek….

    Like

  17. Bush Tea August 13, 2017 at 9:49 AM #

    @ Money B
    Bushie, when NthAm goes down I would suggest that Bdos will be far deeper.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Not to let any secrets out of school…
    But you need to be prepared for the shock of your life… literally.

    Like

  18. Jeff Cumberbatch August 13, 2017 at 9:53 AM #

    *There is the ‘Law’ that defines societal standards….
    …and then there are bushmen …whose standards are MUCH higher, more spiritual, and certainly much less focused on the physical and materialistic.….besides, if yuh have a whacker you can afford to turn the other cheek….:

    @ BT, What then do you advocate for us “whackerless” individuals… and our unspiritual society?

    Like

  19. Money Brain, August 13, 2017 at 9:54 AM #

    While we the Citizens and Govt should try to develop the youth by placing many in a Military styled Camp to learn Discipline and be channeled into appropriate education/ training, we also must grow the economy and create Jobs BUT it must be understood that much is demanded from the youth in which we invest.

    What we have created in the last 50+yrs is a total mess and requires a total reset.

    How can we go easy on criminals who would kill without remorse? Shooting into crowds who are celebrating? Wounding lil kids? These criminals must be aggressively dealt with or they will takeover. Which on second thought may already have happened.

    Like

  20. Money Brain, August 13, 2017 at 9:58 AM #

    Bushie,
    There are few that are better informed on such matters than I.
    The World may take many wicked turns in the years immediately ahead, much has been written.

    Like

  21. The Gazer August 13, 2017 at 9:58 AM #

    Uh begging Bushie to stop.

    Soon he will be telling us “BUT AS BUSHMEN, he expected them to turn the other side of the donkey…and invite another kick instead…” and don’t think of retaliating until you have been kicked 70 times 7.

    Like

  22. Money Brain, August 13, 2017 at 10:00 AM #

    Bushie,
    But you need to be prepared for the shock of your life… literally.

    Wha appen the new electric wacker is not properly grounded????????

    Like

  23. Jeff Cumberbatch August 13, 2017 at 10:05 AM #

    Bushie,But you need to be prepared for the shock of your life… literally.
    Wha happen the new electric whacker is not properly grounded????????

    @MB, I suspect the Bushie’s whacker is a mid-1950’s gas powered model!

    Like

  24. Money Brain, August 13, 2017 at 10:07 AM #

    Jeff,
    one stroke engine? or once stroke?

    Like

  25. Vincent Haynes August 13, 2017 at 10:10 AM #

    The community…….thats the answer.

    On point.
    Durant puts finger on crime problems
    THE POLICE COMMISSIONER who brought community policing to the fore believes the upsurge in gun violence and crime is the result of the reduction of that aspect of…
    nationnews.com
    http://www.nationnews.com/nationnews/news/99628/durant-finger-crime

    Like

  26. Inkwell August 13, 2017 at 11:13 AM #

    Jeff, after perusing the following comments, I trust that your usual objectivity will allow you to admit to flawed, even sophistical argument on this highly emotive subject.

    “the notion of the State murdering murders (sic)”. It is not “apposite” to equate the administration by the state of the lawful punishment for murder with the unlawful killing of another human being without justification or excuse. The state cannot justifiably be accused of “murdering” the offender.

    You seek to equate the carrying out of the death penalty with revenge. Is it revenge when one exceeds the speed limit and is fined in the traffic court? Is it revenge when an accused is convicted of burglary and is sentenced to two years in jail? Is it revenge when a convicted rapist is sentenced to ten years in jail? Why then is the application of the lawfully prescribed punishment for the ultimate crime, murder, all of a sudden decried as revenge? To legitimize your argument, all punishment must be called revenge.

    The major objection of international bodies to the Barbados Law is the fact that its imposition on a guilty verdict is mandatory. How bright did the people administering our legal system have to be to realize that had to be changed? How bright did they have to be to recognize the innate unsafeness of a conviction solely on the basis of an oral confession. I shudder that our Court of Appeal judges could be so crass as to uphold such a conviction and death sentence. And I cringe with embarrassment for my country that only public shaming by the CCJ could jolt our judiciary into cogent and modern thinking, if indeed that has been achieved.

    I fully agree with the notion that it is far better for ten guilty men to go free than it is for one innocent man to be wrongfully put to death, but that noble sentiment must not be allowed to paralyze us into acceptance of the mayhem we are now witnessing.

    Prevention of this wanton killing is simply not possible, a Utopian pipe dream, but the sure and swift execution of the miscreant after due process and clear and irrefutable evidence of guilt, will send a clear message to would be murderers and will indubitably save the lives of some who may otherwise become their victims. Call it a duty of care.

    Like

  27. Ping Pong August 13, 2017 at 11:25 AM #

    The typical Barbadian responses to an issue; condescending dismissal from the legal sophists, the smug prognostication of the theological fantasists and the impotent convoluted explanations of administrative officials.

    In response to Monday’s shooting incident, Freundel Stuart, Prime Minister, one time Attorney General, Queen’s Counsel, attorney at law and a graduate in the humanities from the UWI, intoned that there seemed to be two systems of “justice” operating in Barbados. He “argued” that the challenge (presumably in response to such shootings) is to improve one system of justice and to expunge the other.

    This vulgar and abysmally ignorant use of the word justice as a categorization of criminal and immoral action and the implied argument that with improvement of the authorised justice system the tendency of such shootings in the pursuit of settling scores will decrease is repudiation of all those designations previously ascribed to Mr Stuart.

    Duterte anyone?!

    Like

  28. Jeff Cumberbatch August 13, 2017 at 11:29 AM #

    “…the notion of the State murdering murders (sic)”. It is not “apposite” to equate the administration by the state of the lawful punishment for murder with the unlawful killing of another human being without justification or excuse. The state cannot justifiably be accused of “murdering” the offender.

    @Inkwell, Agreed. Would you settle for “killing” then?

    all of a sudden decried as revenge? To legitimize your argument, all punishment must be called revenge.”

    Some criminologists indeed call it “retribution”, one of the principal features of punishment.

    …but the sure and swift execution of the miscreant after due process and clear and irrefutable evidence of guilt, will send a clear message to would be murderers and will indubitably save the lives of some who may otherwise become their victims. Call it a duty of care.

    I just know that you do not believe that a murderer weighs the possibility of punishment neatly in the balance when committing the offense…

    Like

  29. Jeff Cumberbatch August 13, 2017 at 11:33 AM #

    The typical Barbadian responses to an issue; condescending dismissal from the legal sophists, the smug prognostication of the theological fantasists and the impotent convoluted explanations of administrative officials.

    @ Ping Pong, An intriguing assessment of the discussion, but what is your view?

    Like

  30. David August 13, 2017 at 11:34 AM #

    Thanks for the sic Inkwell.

    Like

  31. Inkwell August 13, 2017 at 11:39 AM #

    You are welcome, David

    Like

  32. The Gazer August 13, 2017 at 11:44 AM #

    @Ping-Pong
    Here googling to find the PM statement…

    I think the man in the street stating that we have “two systems of justice” is quite different than the PM making the same statement.

    You should not not get caught up in semantics or ‘challenges’ as the PM stated, The PM needs to come with solutions or plans to merge or ‘expunged’ one of these systems. He must contribute more than the man in street (just words).

    These guys are smart, they establish a bond with the man in the street by repeating his phrases; they seem aware of and to feel his pain, but yet they do nothing.

    Lip service.

    Like

  33. Inkwell August 13, 2017 at 11:58 AM #

    Jeff

    I’d settle for “executing”. It carries a connotation of authority.
    I’d settle for retribution. Different from revenge, it also has a connotation of authority.

    “I just know that you do not believe that a murderer weighs the possibility of punishment neatly in the balance when committing the offense…”

    Yes I do. Most rational people would. Crimes of passion are a different matter.

    I notice you have not commented on the notion of a duty of care to potential victims

    Like

  34. Ping Pong August 13, 2017 at 12:02 PM #

    My premise (based on observation and experience) is that we are not solution driven but problem driven. I have been told that this an insiduous feature of our British colonial past bequeathed to us. If we were solution driven then we would identify the problem and all its dimensions, then we would explicitly state a desired outcome and based on informed expert analysis design a course of action which will hopefully achieve the desired outcome.

    Then IMPLEMENT the course of action.

    Instead we talk incessantly, give every reason why nothing will work and ultimately hope that the problem will go away if we ignore the problem.

    Gun violence is a symptom of the inadequacies of many institutions of Barbados. I support the death penalty. I also support life in prison where that really means what it says. I do not proffer those measures as solutions or deterrence to gun violence but simply as the appropriate punishment for murder.

    Like

  35. Jeff Cumberbatch August 13, 2017 at 12:17 PM #

    @ Inkwell,

    ret·ri·bu·tion
    /ˌretrəˈbyo͞oSH(ə)n/
    noun
    1.punishment inflicted on someone as vengeance for a wrong or criminal act:

    I am cognizant that the State owes a duty of care to its citizens. The question is what does this entail

    No one seeks to condone murder, but is this any more likely to be foreclosed by the hanging of the perpetrators rather than seeking the prevention of the event in the first place, however difficult such a task may be?

    Like

  36. David August 13, 2017 at 12:23 PM #

    Jeff, Corey Layne just made an interesting intervention on the show when he stated that some children are born into crime, dysfunctional homes and other situations which make them susceptible to deviant behaviour. After giving these people a second and third chance then the law and enforcement methods must be efficient in dealing with those we will struggle to rehabilitate.

    Like

  37. Jeff Cumberbatch August 13, 2017 at 12:26 PM #

    @ David, Is Mr Layne saying that we should not therefore at least try to rehabilitate them? They are members of our society after all.

    Like

  38. David August 13, 2017 at 12:30 PM #

    Jeff my understanding of what he said is that the group deserves to be given a second and third chance by society BUT there are some who will have to be dealt with within the four corners of the law because we lack the capacity to rehabilitate despite best effort.

    Like

  39. Bush Tea August 13, 2017 at 1:12 PM #

    @ Jeff

    BT, What then do you advocate for us “whackerless” individuals… and our unspiritual society?
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Exactly what Inkwell said…

    The reference to your quote of what Jesus said TO HIS DISCIPLES is similar to what you would be expected to say… if invited to lecture to a group of your graduates.
    …SURELY you would expect from them a HIGHER standard of lawfulness than you would expect from stinking Bushie… or other regular brass bowls..

    All you expect from Bushie is that he conforms to the Law….. in this case LAWFUL retribution being the understood penalty for doing shiite.
    For officers of the court, you may expect that they would reflect the very SPIRIT of the law.

    @ Gazer
    The whacker is a modern 4-stroke ICE model with all the bells and whistles….. and it purrs like a dream… can pulverise ANY kinda shiite…
    BTW … the seventy times seven is just another way of saying turn the other cheek…. 🙂
    … but such patience is NOT expected OR required of regular folks. Wunna have to be careful not to get confused by what Jesus was saying SPECIFICALLY to his bushmen….

    @ Ping Pong
    Good catch…
    Froon actually said that there were two justice systems – one was swift and sure …and the other was plagued with confusion and delays….. the latter being the one under his watch… the one that Jeff would have us take seriously…

    Shiite !!!
    Sounds like he is envious of the gang leaders….
    Steupsss…
    If we sink any lower our donkeys will be in Australia….

    Like

  40. Chad99999 August 13, 2017 at 5:15 PM #

    The psychologist is like the seismologist

    The seismologist cannot prevent earthquakes and cannot predict them in a timeframe that would make the prediction useful.

    In the same way the psychologist cannot predict or prevent violent behavior in an individual, and even his explanations of violent acts that have already occurred is unsatisfying.

    What should we do with murderers? If we were a wealthy society like the United States, there would be a strong case for warehousing the individual until his or her natural death. But in a poor country like Barbados, that is too expensive. Certainly in cases where guilt is not in doubt, a firing squad should be called in.

    Like

  41. Money Brain, August 13, 2017 at 6:55 PM #

    999999,
    The key for me is having concrete evidence without a doubt. Once we sure they guilty murderer must go especially the recent fellas shooting lil kids and everybody at Kadooment.
    Bim has changed and it is time to get rough with these miscreants as that is the only language they can understand. The Europeans encourage their criminals to think that they really can do no wrong—-U cant treat Wild Animals the same way as a puppy. Ms Braffit must be protected!

    Like

  42. Bernard Codrington. August 13, 2017 at 8:05 PM #

    What is the real problem? The increase in violence? The nature of the violence ? Or punishment for the violence? Which of these are really preventable and which can really be eliminated? Th fact that we are discussing this topic for the umpteenth time suggests that violence is not preventable and cannot be eliminated. It can only be contained. The laws on the book need to be enforced in order to control a problem that has clearly gotten out of hand. Society as a whole is not persuaded that the law is being enforced. I think that the powers that be need to do what they are supposed to do and that with dispatch. We are tired of excuses.

    Like

  43. Bush Tea August 13, 2017 at 9:19 PM #

    Th fact that we are discussing this topic for the umpteenth time suggests that violence is not preventable and cannot be eliminated. It can only be contained.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    It suggest no such thing!!
    Bushie is somewhat surprised that you would draw such an illogical conclusion.

    The fact that we are “discussing this topic for the umpteenth time” suggest ONLY that Jeff was at a loss for a more BU-ready topic for this weekend – and that he decided to ‘try a thing…’

    Your first paragraph, however, is vintage Bernard…. when you ask – BRILLIANTLY …
    What is the REAL problem???

    What a GREAT question….
    If we could answer that correctly we would be 80% on the way to the solution…..

    Like

  44. Hants August 13, 2017 at 9:19 PM #

    Do any of you have friends or relatives who were murdered ?

    Hanging is only a punishment if it continues in hell but what if the only hell is on Earth?

    Imprisonment at Dodds is probably worse than death.

    Like

  45. Bush Tea August 13, 2017 at 9:58 PM #

    @ Hants
    Boss, the ‘punishment’ for murder is in the fact that the person murdered gets to prepare themselves and wait patiently on the arrival of the murderer – wherever they end up…

    It is like sending a fella – against his will- to a place where you will HAVE to join him later – AFTER he has had time to CAREFULLY and METICULOUSLY plan for your ‘arrival….

    Not stinking Bushie with THAT shiite…
    …and woe betides the idiot that murders Bushie ….and then have to appear in the Bushman’s new hometown as a grub…….

    ‘Hanging’ is just the actualisation of the ‘eye’ for an ‘eye’…..just as ‘being squashed like a bug’ is the actualisation of jumping off a cliff without wings or other flying paraphernalia ….

    …no matter what the bleeding hearts have to say about it….

    Like

  46. Hal Austin August 14, 2017 at 1:01 PM #

    The defence force has now declared its support for the police in the fight for law and order. This raises a number of questions, including the line of command, will people arrested by the Defence Force be tried in military tribunal under military law, and how far behind is the RSS? We are on the precipice of social breakdown.

    Like

  47. Hants August 14, 2017 at 1:55 PM #

    You have all talked about Punishment but not a word about the VICTIM and their family.

    Ok so rehabilitate the murderer but first rehabilitate the victim’s family.

    You are all maguffees and brainiacs so I doan have to read an spell fuh wunna.

    Like

  48. Bernard Codrington. August 14, 2017 at 2:07 PM #

    @ Hal Austin at 1:01 PM

    No state of emergency has been declared in Barbados. It has not reached that stage. The Police Force is in command. The Defence Force has no power to arrest. They are assisting the Police as they have done in the past. They work harmoniously.

    Like

  49. Hal Austin August 14, 2017 at 2:33 PM #

    Bernard,
    Is that optimism? A defence force does not have to say it is supporting the police; certain policies are implicit. To make a declaration is a matter of intent. Look at the context: alleged threats to the police; 16 so-called gangs in operation in a small geographical area; gun crime; drug smuggling; 21000 people marching through the city; one of the highest per capita rates of imprisonment in the westerns world; and, most of all, the RSS threatening to take over policing in the region.
    Is the prime minister going to declare a state of emergency? He is incapable of making any decision. The Governor General retired ages ago, he gave them six months’ notice, yet they cannot make an appointment; we urgently need a police commissioner; we need a DPP. In short, the state is collapsing.

    Like

  50. Talking Loud Saying Nothing August 14, 2017 at 3:05 PM #

    Like

  51. Talking Loud Saying Nothing August 14, 2017 at 5:24 PM #

    Like

  52. Talking Loud Saying Nothing August 14, 2017 at 5:29 PM #

    @ David,

    Wrong link it should have been the Nation’s link below:

    IN HIS WORDS: Top cop on crime situation
    Published on 20 Jul 2017
    Acting Commissioner of Police Tyrone Griffith speaks about the crime situation in Barbados and what is being done in response.

    Like

  53. Alvin Cummins August 14, 2017 at 6:03 PM #

    David, Why do you refuse to accept my contribution?

    Like

  54. Alvin Cummins August 14, 2017 at 6:07 PM #

    Hal, The defence force has no legal power of arrest. The simple thing to do is what they did before; Police and Eefence force patrol together and the Police arrest and charge. No difficulty, and no need for any state of emergency.

    Like

  55. Hal Austin August 14, 2017 at 6:10 PM #

    Alvin,
    During peacetime the defence force has no power of arrest. During an emergency they can detain people. But you are being technical; ordinary people have the power of arrest, that is what we call a citizen’s arrest.

    Like

  56. Alvin Cummins August 14, 2017 at 6:12 PM #

    Money Brain; why am I not surprised at your comment;: U cant treat Wild Animals the same way…”
    I have not heard you make the same remark regarding the white supremacists who also kill innocent people. Remember they are in your back yard.

    Like

  57. Bernard Codrington. August 14, 2017 at 8:44 PM #

    @ Hal at 2:33 PM

    No not optimism, but an assurance that is based on my understanding and knowledge of the Barbadian psyche. If there is outside interference then I may be wrong.
    There is no evidence that the state is collapsing even though the information you have shared on BU are for the most part true. I agree that we need to make crucial decisions more speedily.

    Like

  58. Money Brain, August 14, 2017 at 11:59 PM #

    Alvin,
    I was talking about European wild animals, have referred to football hooligans the same way, quite eager to state that White Supremacists certainly fit the bill—any person that behaves like a Wild Animal whether they drive cars in to crowds, shoot into crowds a la Kadoohment, are lily white behaviour that is inhumane and deserving of equally hellish punishment.

    U dont know MB!
    Hint I dont back loser Politicians like you—NO to Justin, Lezzie Loser, Hilly Billy and especially the current Disasters Lacking Potential.

    Like

  59. David August 19, 2017 at 7:01 PM #

    As we need these deportees at this time.

    LEROY Griffiths – jailed for murdering a man in Addingham in 2002 – is to be released and deported back to Barbados this weekend, it has been reported.

    Twenty-one year old Mark Webster was stabbed in the chest with a kitchen knife by chef Griffith, as he tried to intervene in an incident outside The Fleece pub in Main Street on April 1, 2002. Griffith, who denied murder, was found guilty in Leeds Crown Court in December 2002 and handed a minimum tariff of 14 years in prison.

    Mark’s father Tim Webster campaigned for Griffith, who is originally from Barbados, to be deported should he be released from jail. Mr Webster had the support of former Keighley and Ilkley MP Kris Hopkins who also said Griffith should never “set foot in Ilkley ever again”.

    http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/15482497.DEPORTED__Murderer_who_stabbed_young_chef_to_death_will_sent_back_to_home_country/

    Like

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  1. The Jefferson Cumberbatch Column – Crime, Punishment and the Rule of Law II | Barbados Underground - August 20, 2017

    […] was no surprise, for at least two main reasons, that popular reaction to last week’s column was largely negative. In the first place, it treated arguments against the implementation of the […]

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