jesus

Did He Rise on the Third Day?

Submitted by Charles Knighton

jesus!“Thus far, the Christian religion is the only one that conforms to the belief that the only way to God and eternal life hereafter is through His Son Jesus Christ, His death on the Cross and His Resurrection. No other faith or religion professes or proclaims these events. Research in the subject of comparative religions supports and gives credence to the above.” Michael Ray letter to the editor “Keeping the faith”, February 16

The action of a man who volunteers to die for his fellow creatures is universally regarded as noble. The extra claim not to have “really” died makes the whole sacrifice tricky and meretricious. (Thus, those who say “Christ died for my sins,” when he did not really “die” at all, are making a statement that is false in its own terms.) Having no reliable or consistent witnesses, in anything like the time period needed to certify such an extraordinary claim, we are finally entitled to say that we have a right, if not an obligation, to respect ourselves enough to disbelieve the whole thing.

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61 Comments on “Did He Rise on the Third Day?”

  1. Alvin Cummins February 17, 2016 at 11:13 PM #

    @Charles Knighton,

    Read my book “Yeshua a.k.a. Jesus the Nazarene.” Available from Chattel House Book Store; Sky Mall.

    Good reading, and answers the question.

    Like

  2. Zoe February 18, 2016 at 1:39 AM #

    The most epochal event in history, is* the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, attested to by internal and external evidence, which in a Court of Law, simply could not be found wanting, as such evidence for the Resurrection has never broken down yet!

    Legal Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ

    How do we know whether an historical event actually occurred?

    1) Someone recorded it (or testifies to it);
    2) They show themselves to be reliable as a source;
    3) There is no contrary evidence.

    Christianity bases its claims on actual historical events. The central claim is the
    Resurrection, that Jesus Christ of Nazareth physically died on a cross, and on the third day, physically emerged from his tomb alive and well, and appeared to over 500 eyewitnesses.

    In his first letter to the Corinthians, the Apostle Paul outlines the historical case for the
    Gospel events:
    1 Corinthians 15:3-9 (KJV)

    For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins
    according to the scriptures;

    And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

    And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

    After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part
    remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

    After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

    And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

    For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted
    the church of God.

    From this, Paul logically concludes,
    1 Corinthians 15:14-17 (KJV)
    14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
    15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he
    raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
    16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
    17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

    Any one of the surviving 500 eyewitnesses to Christ’s resurrection could be interviewed –
    and verify Paul’s account. His case was open to investigation and could be tested.1

    “All that Christianity asks of men on this subject is that they would be consistent with
    themselves; that they would treat its evidences as they threat the evidence of other things; and that they would try and judge its actors and witnesses as they deal with their fellow men, when testifying to human affairs and actions, in human tribunals.” So declares Simon Greenleaf,
    Royall Professor of Law at Harvard University. http://www.classicalapologetics.com

    Like

  3. Alvin Cummins February 18, 2016 at 8:29 AM #

    @Zoe,
    Jesus would have spent only about three hours on the cross; after the trial before the Chief priests, after the appearance before Pilate, after the scourging, after the journey to Golgotha, and after being put on the cross. Three hours would not have been long enough for him to die. thus he would have been alive when he was put in the tomb. Three days would have been time enough to recover from the ordeal. Paul’s letters were all self serving and should be examined closely, and in the context of the politics of the time.

    Like

  4. Zoe February 18, 2016 at 8:46 AM #

    Evidence
    for the resurrection!

    For centuries many of the world’s distinguished philosophers have assaulted Christianity as being irrational, superstitious and absurd. Many have chosen simply to ignore the central issue of the resurrection. Others have tried to explain it away through various theories. But the historical evidence just can’t be discounted.

    A student at the University of Uruguay said to me. “Professor McDowell, why can’t you refute Christianity?”

    “For a very simple reason,” I answered. “I am not able to explain away an event in history—the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”
    How can we explain the empty tomb? Can it possibly be accounted for by any natural cause?

    A QUESTION OF HISTORY

    After more than 700 hours of studying this subject, I have come to the conclusion that the resurrection of Jesus Christ is either one of the most wicked, vicious, heartless hoaxes ever foisted on the minds of human beings—or it is the most remarkable fact of history .

    Here are some of the facts relevant to the resurrection: Jesus of Nazareth, a Jewish prophet who claimed to be the Christ prophesied in the Jewish Scriptures, was arrested, was judged a political criminal, and was crucified. Three days after His death and burial, some women who went to His tomb found the body gone. In subsequent weeks, His disciples claimed that God had raised Him from the dead and that He appeared to them various times before ascending into heaven.

    From that foundation, Christianity spread throughout the Roman Empire and has continued to exert great influence down through the centuries.

    LIVING WITNESSES

    The New Testament accounts of the resurrection were being circulated within the lifetimes of men and women alive at the time of the resurrection. Those people could certainly have confirmed or denied the accuracy of such accounts.

    The writers of the four Gospels either had themselves been witnesses or else were relating the accounts of eyewitnesses of the actual events. In advocating their case for the gospel, a word that means “good news,” the apostles appealed (even when confronting their most severe opponents) to common knowledge concerning the facts of the resurrection.

    F. F. Bruce, Rylands professor of biblical criticism and exegesis at the University of Manchester, says concerning the value of the New Testament records as primary sources: “Had there been any tendency to depart from the facts in any material respect, the possible presence of hostile witnesses in the audience would have served as a further corrective.”

    IS THE NEW TESTAMENT RELIABLE?

    Because the New Testament provides the primary historical source for information on the resurrection, many critics during the 19th century attacked the reliability of these biblical documents.

    By the end of the 1 9th century, however, archaeological discoveries had confirmed the accuracy of the New Testament manuscripts. Discoveries of early papyri bridged the gap between the time of Christ and existing manuscripts from a later date.

    Those findings increased scholarly confidence in the reliability of the Bible. William F. Albright, who in his day was the world’s foremost biblical archaeologist, said:

    “We can already say emphatically that there is no longer any solid basis for dating any book of the New Testament after about A.D. 80, two full generations before the date between 130 and 150 given by the more radical New Testament critics of today.”

    Coinciding with the papyri discoveries, an abundance of other manuscripts came to light (over 24,000 copies of early New Testament manuscripts are known to be in existence today).

    The historian Luke wrote of “authentic evidence” concerning the resurrection. Sir William Ramsay, who spent 15 years attempting to undermine Luke credentials as a historian, and to refute the reliability of the New Testament, finally concluded:

    “Luke is a historian of the first rank . . . This author should be placed along with the very greatest of historians. ”

    I claim to be an historian. My approach to Classics is historical. And I tell you that the evidence for the life, the death, and the resurrection of Christ is better authenticated than most of the facts of ancient history . . .
    E. M. Blaiklock
    Professor of Classics
    Auckland University

    BACKGROUND

    The New Testament witnesses were fully aware of the background against which the resurrection took place. The body of Jesus, in accordance with Jewish burial custom, was wrapped in a linen cloth. About 100 pounds of aromatic spices, mixed together to form a gummy substance, were applied to the wrappings of cloth about the body. After the body was placed in a solid rock tomb, an extremely large stone was rolled against the entrance of the tomb. Large stones weighing approximately two tons were normally rolled (by means of levers) against a tomb entrance.

    A Roman guard of strictly disciplined fighting men was stationed to guard the tomb. This guard affixed on the tomb the Roman seal, which was meant to “prevent any attempt at vandalizing the sepulcher. Anyone trying to move the stone from the tomb’s entrance would have broken the seal and thus incurred the wrath of Roman law.

    But three days later the tomb was empty. The followers of Jesus said He had risen from the dead. They reported that He appeared to them during a period of 40 days, showing Himself to them by many “infallible proofs.”

    Paul the apostle recounted that Jesus appeared to more than 500 of His followers at one time, the majority of whom were still alive and who could confirm what Paul wrote. So many security precautions were taken with the trial, crucifixion, burial, entombment, sealing, and guarding of Christ’s tomb that it becomes very difficult for critics to defend their position that Christ did not rise from the dead. Consider these facts:

    FACT #1: BROKEN ROMAN SEAL

    As we have said, the first obvious fact was the breaking of the seal that stood for the power and authority of the Roman Empire. The consequences of breaking the seal were extremely severe. The FBI and CIA of the Roman Empire were called into action to find the man or men who were responsible. If they were apprehended, it meant automatic execution by crucifixion upside down. People feared the breaking of the seal. Jesus’ disciples displayed signs of cowardice when they hid themselves. Peter, one of these disciples, went out and denied Christ three times.

    FACT #2: EMPTY TOMB

    As we have already discussed, another obvious fact after the resurrection was the empty tomb. The disciples of Christ did not go off to Athens or Rome to preach that Christ was raised from the dead. Rather, they went right back to the city of Jerusalem, where, if what they were teaching was false, the falsity would be evident. The empty tomb was “too notorious to be denied.”

    Paul Althaus states that the resurrection “could have not been maintained in Jerusalem for a single day, for a single hour, if the emptiness of the tomb had not been established as a fact for all concerned.”

    Both Jewish and Roman sources and traditions admit an empty tomb. Those resources range from Josephus to a compilation of fifth-century Jewish writings called the “Toledoth Jeshu.”

    Dr. Paul Maier calls this “positive evidence from a hostile source, which is the strongest kind of historical evidence. In essence, this means that if a source admits a fact decidedly not in its favor, then that fact is genuine.”

    Gamaliel, who was a member of the Jewish high court, the Sanhedrin, put forth the suggestion that the rise of the Christian movement was God’s doing; he could not have done that if the tomb were still occupied, or if the Sanhedrin knew the whereabouts of Christ’s body.

    Paul Maier observes that ” . . . if all the evidence is weighed carefully and fairly, it is indeed justifiable, according to the canons of historical research, to conclude that the sepulcher of Joseph of Arimathea, in which Jesus was buried, was actually empty on the morning of the first Easter. And no shred of evidence has yet been discovered in literary sources, epigraphy, or archaeology that would disprove this statement.”

    FACT #3: LARGE STONE MOVED
    On that Sunday morning the first thing that impressed the people who approached the tomb was the unusual position of the one and a half to two ton stone that had been lodged in front of the doorway. All the Gospel writers mention it.

    There exists no document from the ancient world, witnessed by so excellent a set of textual and historical testimonies . . . Skepticism regarding the historical credentials of Christianity is based upon an irrational bias.

    Clark Pinnock
    Mcmaster University. http://www.bible.ca/d-resurrection-evidence.htm

    Like

  5. ac February 18, 2016 at 8:47 AM #

    Exactly the politics of the time. However what goes against reasoning is Jesus having a last supper and instructions for commemoration of his death.it does not make sense if he was returning after three days he would initiated a last supper and give instructions on how he should be remember

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  6. Vincent Haynes February 18, 2016 at 9:07 AM #

    Interesting……no mention of agnostics.

    http://www.pasthorizonspr.com/index.php/archives/02/2016/history-shows-that-atheism-is-as-natural-to-humans-as-religion

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  7. Zoe February 18, 2016 at 9:11 AM #

    How Much Did Jesus Suffer? A Medical Account of Death by Crucifixion

    When you reconstruct the medical aspects of Jesus’ crucifixion, the result is a brutal, vivid picture of what Jesus endured to save people from sin.

    In 1986, The Journal of the American Medical Association published a series of articles examining the practice of torture. The first piece was entitled “On the Physical Death of Jesus Christ,” by William D. Edwards, M.D.; Wesley J. Gabel, M.Div.; and Floyd E. Hosmer, M.S., AMI.

    “The article was an account of perhaps the most influential single event of torture in history with physiologically sound analysis showing the horrifying pain of a common ancient Roman punishment,” editor George Lundberg later wrote in defense of the controversial content.

    Drawing on the biblical account of the crucifixion, archaeological evidence and historic documents, combined with modern study, the article aimed to “reconstruct the probable medical aspects of this form of slow execution” (1460). The result was a brutal, vivid explanation of what Jesus endured to save people from sin.

    An Excruciating Death

    This is what we did to the God of the universe, as described by the article:

    “Although the Romans did not invent crucifixions they perfected it as a form of torture and capital punishment that was designed to produce a slow death with maximum pain and suffering” (1458).

    “For scourging, the man was stripped of his clothing, and his hands were tied to an upright post. The back, buttocks, and legs were flogged either by two soldiers (lictors) or by one who alternated positions. The severity of the scourging depended on the disposition of the lictors and was intended to weaken the victim to a state just short of collapse or death” (1457).

    “As the flogging continued, the lacerations would tear into the underlying skeletal muscles and produce quivering ribbons of bleeding flesh” (1457).

    “When the soldiers tore the robe from Jesus’ back, they probably reopened the scourging wounds” (1458).

    “The driven nail would crush or sever the rather large sensorimotor median nerve. The stimulated nerve would produce excruciating bolts of fiery pain in both arms” (1460).

    “Adequate exhalation required lifting the body by pushing up on the feet and by flexing the elbows and adducting the shoulders. However, this maneuver would place the entire weight of the body on the tarsals and would produce searing pain. Furthermore, flexion of the elbows would cause rotation of the wrists about the iron nails and cause fiery pain along the damaged median nerves” (1461).

    “Since speech occurs during exhalation, these short, terse utterances [Jesus’ words from the cross] must have been particularly difficult and painful” (1462).

    In short, “Death by crucifixion was, in every sense of the word, excruciating (Latin, excruciatus, or ‘out of the cross’)” (1461). But Jesus’ violent, painful, sacrificial, courageous, humble death is not only the most horrific act of sinful man the world has ever known—it’s also the greatest act of love demonstrated by our good and righteous God.

    Not a Helpless Victim

    It is tempting to look upon the crucified Jesus with condescending pity and feel sorry for His brutal suffering. Yet out of respect for Jesus’ dignity, we must resist that temptation, because Jesus did not die as yet another helpless victim. Rather, with the cross on the horizon of His life, Jesus said that no one would take His life from Him in defeat, but rather He would give it and take it up again in victory (John 10:18).

    http://www.charismanews.com

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  8. Zoe February 18, 2016 at 9:50 AM #

    A Physician’s View of the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ

    Jesus
    Pain and Suffering
    Death
    Dr. C. Truman Davis

    So we have only the concise words of the Evangelists: “Pilate, having scourged Jesus, delivered Him to them to be crucified — and they crucified Him.” I have no competence to discuss the infinite psychic and spiritual suffering of the Incarnate God atoning for the sins of fallen man. But it seemed to me that as a physician I might pursue the physiological and anatomical aspects of our Lord’s passion in some detail.

    What did the body of Jesus of Nazareth actually endure during those hours of torture?

    This led me first to a study of the practice of crucifixion itself; that is, torture and execution by fixation to a cross. I am indebted to many who have studied this subject in the past, and especially to a contemporary colleague, Dr. Pierre Barbet, a French surgeon who has done exhaustive historical and experimental research and has written extensively on the subject.

    Many of the painters and most of the sculptors of crucifixion, also show the nails through the palms. Historical Roman accounts and experimental work have established that the nails were driven between the small bones of the wrists (radial and ulna) and not through the palms. Nails driven through the palms will strip out between the fingers when made to support the weight of the human body. The misconception may have come about through a misunderstanding of Jesus’ words to Thomas, “Observe my hands.” Anatomists, both modern and ancient, have always considered the wrist as part of the hand.

    But, of course, the physical passion of the Christ began in Gethsemane. Of the many aspects of this initial suffering, the one of greatest physiological interest is the bloody sweat. It is interesting that St. Luke, the physician, is the only one to mention this. He says, “And being in agony, He prayed the longer. And His sweat became as drops of blood, trickling down upon the ground.” Every ruse (trick) imaginable has been used by modern scholars to explain away this description, apparently under the mistaken impression that this just doesn’t happen. A great deal of effort could have been saved had the doubters consulted the medical literature. Though very rare, the phenomenon of Hematidrosis, or bloody sweat, is well documented. Under great emotional stress of the kind our Lord suffered, tiny capillaries in the sweat glands can break, thus mixing blood with sweat. This process might well have produced marked weakness and possible shock.

    Preparations for the scourging were carried out when the Prisoner was stripped of His clothing and His hands tied to a post above His head. It is doubtful the Romans would have made any attempt to follow the Jewish law in this matter, but the Jews had an ancient law prohibiting more than forty lashes. The Roman legionnaire steps forward with the flagrum (or flagellum) in his hand. This is a short whip consisting of several heavy, leather thongs with two small balls of lead attached near the ends of each. The heavy whip is brought down with full force again and again across Jesus’ shoulders, back, and legs.

    At first the thongs cut through the skin only. Then, as the blows continue, they cut deeper into the subcutaneous tissues, producing first an oozing of blood from the capillaries and veins of the skin, and finally spurting arterial bleeding from vessels in the underlying muscles.

    The small balls of lead first produce large, deep bruises which are broken open by subsequent blows. Finally the skin of the back is hanging in long ribbons and the entire area is an unrecognizable mass of torn, bleeding tissue. When it is determined by the centurion in charge that the prisoner is near death, the beating is finally stopped. The half-fainting Jesus is then untied and allowed to slump to the stone pavement, wet with His own blood.

    The Roman soldiers see a great joke in this provincial Jew claiming to be king. They throw a robe across His shoulders and place a stick in His hand for a scepter. They still need a crown to make their travesty complete. Flexible branches covered with long thorns (commonly used in bundles for firewood) are plaited into the shape of a crown and this is pressed into His scalp. Again there is copious bleeding, the scalp being one of the most vascular areas of the body.

    After mocking Him and striking Him across the face, the soldiers take the stick from His hand and strike Him across the head, driving the thorns deeper into His scalp. Finally, they tire of their sadistic sport and the robe is torn from His back. Already having adhered to the clots of blood and serum in the wounds, its removal causes excruciating pain just as in the careless removal of a surgical bandage, and almost as though

    He were again being whipped the wounds once more begin to bleed. In deference to Jewish custom, the Romans return His garments. The heavy patibulum of the cross is tied across His shoulders, and the procession of the condemned Christ, two thieves, and the execution detail of Roman soldiers headed by a centurion begins its slow journey along the Via Dolorosa.

    In spite of His efforts to walk erect, the weight of the heavy wooden beam, together with the shock produced by copious blood loss, is too much. He stumbles and falls. The rough wood of the beam gouges into the lacerated skin and muscles of the shoulders. He tries to rise, but human muscles have been pushed beyond their endurance.

    The centurion, anxious to get on with the crucifixion, selects a stalwart North African onlooker, Simon of Cyrene, to carry the cross. Jesus follows, still bleeding and sweating the cold, clammy sweat of shock, until the 650 yard journey from the fortress Antonia to Golgotha is finally completed. Jesus is offered wine mixed with myrrh, a mild analgesic mixture. He refuses to drink. Simon is ordered to place the patibulum on the ground and Jesus quickly thrown backward with His shoulders against the wood. The legionnaire feels for the depression at the front of the wrist. He drives a heavy, square, wrought-iron nail through the wrist and deep into the wood. Quickly, he moves to the other side and repeats the action, being careful not to pull the arms to tightly, but to allow some flexion and movement. The patibulum is then lifted in place at the top of the stipes and the titulus reading, “Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews,” is nailed in place.

    The left foot is now pressed backward against the right foot, and with both feet extended, toes down, a nail is driven through the arch of each, leaving the knees moderately flexed. The Victim is now crucified. As He slowly sags down with more weight on the nails in the wrists, excruciating pain shoots along the fingers and up the arms to explode in the brain — the nails in the wrists are putting pressure on the median nerves.

    As He pushes Himself upward to avoid this stretching torment, He places His full weight on the nail through His feet.

    Again there is the searing agony of the nail tearing through the nerves between the metatarsal bones of the feet. At this point, as the arms fatigue, great waves of cramps sweep over the muscles, knotting them in deep, relentless, throbbing pain. With these cramps comes the inability to push Himself upward.

    Hanging by his arms, the pectoral muscles are paralyzed and the intercostal muscles are unable to act. Air can be drawn into the lungs, but cannot be exhaled. Jesus fights to raise Himself in order to get even one short breath. Finally, carbon dioxide builds up in the lungs and in the blood stream and the cramps partially subside. Spasmodically, he is able to push Himself upward to exhale and bring in the life-giving oxygen.

    It was undoubtedly during these periods that He uttered the seven short sentences recorded:

    The first, looking down at the Roman soldiers throwing dice for His seamless garment, “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.”

    The second, to the penitent thief, “Today thou shalt be with me in Paradise.”

    The third, looking down at the terrified, grief-stricken adolescent John — the beloved Apostle — he said, “Behold thy mother.” Then, looking to His mother Mary, “Woman behold thy son.”

    The fourth cry is from the beginning of the 22nd Psalm, “My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me?”

    Jesus experienced hours of limitless pain, cycles of twisting, joint-rending cramps, intermittent partial asphyxiation, searing pain where tissue is torn from His lacerated back as He moves up and down against the rough timber.

    Then another agony begins — a terrible crushing pain deep in the chest as the pericardium slowly fills with serum and begins to compress the heart. One remembers again the 22nd Psalm, the 14th verse: “I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.”

    It is now almost over. The loss of tissue fluids has reached a critical level; the compressed heart is struggling to pump heavy, thick, sluggish blood into the tissue; the tortured lungs are making a frantic effort to gasp in small gulps of air.

    The markedly dehydrated tissues send their flood of stimuli to the brain. Jesus gasps His fifth cry, “I thirst.” One remembers another verse from the prophetic 22nd Psalm: “My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou has brought me into the dust of death.” A sponge soaked in posca, the cheap, sour wine which is the staple drink of the Roman legionaries, is lifted to His lips. He apparently doesn’t take any of the liquid.

    The body of Jesus is now in extremes, and He can feel the chill of death creeping through His tissues. This realization brings out His sixth words, possibly little more than a tortured whisper, “It is finished.” His mission of atonement has completed. Finally He can allow his body to die.

    With one last surge of strength, he once again presses His torn feet against the nail, straightens His legs, takes a deeper breath, and utters His seventh and last cry, “Father! Into thy hands I commit my spirit.”

    The rest you know. In order that the Sabbath not be profaned, the Jews asked that the condemned men be dispatched and removed from the crosses. The common method of ending a crucifixion was by crurifracture, the breaking of the bones of the legs. This prevented the victim from pushing himself upward; thus the tension could not be relieved from the muscles of the chest and rapid suffocation occurred. The legs of the two thieves were broken, but when the soldiers came to Jesus they saw that this was unnecessary.

    Apparently, to make doubly sure of death, the legionnaire drove his lance through the fifth interspace between the ribs, upward through the pericardium and into the heart. http://www.cbn.com

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  9. John February 18, 2016 at 10:12 AM #

    “We do not know we cannot tell what pain he had to bear but we believe it was for us he hung and suffered there”

    Various attempts have been made to explain the causes of death, here is one which may or may not have been disproved.

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2004/apr/08/thisweekssciencequestions

    Sounds pretty gruesome to me!!

    Maybe we just don’t need to know when faith works fine!!

    Like

  10. Kiki February 18, 2016 at 10:41 AM #

    JC’s memory and spirit lives on in others

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  11. Kiki February 18, 2016 at 10:42 AM #

    Jah Rastafari liveth

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  12. ac February 18, 2016 at 1:50 PM #

    Why is it that the church still proselytizing the story of a risen Christ when the facts as told in the bible does not make sense and are strewn completly apart incohesively.
    We have a jesus administering his last supper a symbol of closure for his earthly life.
    We have disciples who had walk and talked with him through out his ministry but in doubt of his ressurection.
    Why would his disciples be in doubt if they were told before hand by jesus that he would be resurrected

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  13. TheGazer February 18, 2016 at 3:03 PM #

    Zoe: the cure for insomnia

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  14. Hopi February 18, 2016 at 7:17 PM #

    @Zoeeee!

    “And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.”
    Excluding Damascus when did Paul meet Jesus Christ? Not as one born out of due time but exactly when did he meet the Christ? When did their paths cross?

    Since there are many who don’t believe this concoction you find it necessary to enlist the expertise of Dr. See Thruman Davis who apparently was present at the “crucifixion.”

    Come on Zoe this isn’t impressive. You can do better than that.

    Like

  15. ac February 18, 2016 at 7:40 PM #

    Paul story of the resurrection is what he was told he was not a member of the in crowd. Even those who walked and talked with jesus tells differing stories of the resurrection,,,, a tantalizing and disbelieving story for his faithful followers which morphs into a story of more intrigue dragging with it suspicion confusion and doubt among the disciples

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  16. Zoe February 18, 2016 at 9:06 PM #

    The ignorant BU deniers of the Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, CANNOT offer any cogent, coherent refutation, none!!! They utterly fail to understand, that denial carries the same degree of required facts and evidence in support of their position, as do the facts and evidence affirming.

    Facts become credible facts, when there are warranted to a relevant degree of certainty.

    The Death and Resurrection of The Lord Jesus Christ, IS* credibly warranted, well beyond reasonable doubt.

    The structure of justification, in defending any propositional Truth Claim, IS* coherence, coherence IS* our sole criteria for truth.

    The Death and Resurrection of The Lord Jesus Christ, is* coherently attested to, by both internal and external evidence, beyond any other ancient document.

    Reason (ability to think critically) IS* necessary for revelation (evidence) to be understood in its coherence.

    I claim to be an historian. My approach to Classics is historical. And I tell you that the evidence for the life, the death, and the resurrection of Christ is better authenticated than most of the facts of ancient history . . .
    E. M. Blaiklock
    Professor of Classics
    Auckland University

    There exists no document from the ancient world, witnessed by so excellent a set of textual and historical testimonies . . . Skepticism regarding the historical credentials of Christianity is based upon an irrational bias.

    Clark Pinnock
    Mcmaster University.

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  17. ac February 18, 2016 at 9:50 PM #

    Oh please thescholars of bible literature are yet to explain with clarity and logic why jesus disciples were in doubt about his ressurection.the missing and unexplainable link is why if he had told them he would return from the dead why would they be confused and doubtful

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  18. Hopi February 18, 2016 at 10:15 PM #

    @Zoe…I asked of you “When did Paul meet Jesus?” You cannot answer because PAUL NEVER met JESUS therefore either Paul is no EYEWITNESS.

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  19. ac February 18, 2016 at 10:49 PM #

    Paul describes himself as chameleon he took liberties with the church which christ built using bamboozle and guerrilla tactics to wrestler the leadership of the church away from Peter whoom Jesus had ordained to be the rightful leader after his ascension
    Like many of todays new age preachers Peter was dogmatic and charasmatic and carried a fearless counteance something that he used wisely to instill fear in those who oppose him

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  20. Zoe February 19, 2016 at 8:51 AM #

    But Was the Tomb Empty?

    It has been supposed that Paul’s Damascus road experience was essentially different from the experience of the other apostles. His experience has been held to be mystical and subjective, while theirs was physical and objective. Furthermore, it is argued, Paul says nothing about the tomb being empty.

    Paul, however, does not differentiate his experience from the rest of the apostles, other than in its timing. He was not with them at the beginning. He says “he appeared to Peter … he appeared to James … and last of all he appeared also to me”. Previously he had asked.

    “Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?” (1 Corinthians 9:1). He says nothing to imply that his experience was essentially different from theirs.

    While he does not refer to the tomb being empty, it is implicit in the creed. Firstly, the creed describes the progression “died … buried … raised … appeared”. Whilst modern people might be tempted to separate these meanings, a first century Jew would only have believed that the sentence implied a continuity. What was dead was buried, what was dead and buried was raised, and what was dead, buried and raised also appeared. The clear implication of this creed is that Jesus underwent a bodily resurrection.

    Secondly, the creed is emphatic that something happened “on the third day”. That event, we are told, is that Jesus “was raised”. The appearances, which followed, continued over several weeks.

    For the central truths of the gospel, then, we have very early eyewitness testimony, the text of which is thoroughly documented, coming from a man of impressive moral character, who put himself under oath for his statements. It is difficult to imagine anything better.

    Learning from Thomas

    The resurrection event did not happen in a vacuum. The gospels reveal Christ to have taught the highest ethic the world has ever heard, to have lived a life of stunning integrity, courage and compassion, to have performed astonishing deeds, to have consistently spoken with the authority of God, and to have been executed for blasphemy.

    An incident in John’s account is instructive. Thomas had been told that this Christ had risen, by people he knew well and might reasonably have trusted, namely the other apostles. He had every reason to take them seriously, yet his doubts overwhelmed him. John reports that Christ later appeared to Thomas, eliciting his famous response “My Lord and my God.” Christ’s reply to him, however, is salutary. “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed” (John 20:24-29).

    In other words, all over the world, throughout the centuries, people would be invited to trust the risen Christ on the basis of the apostles’ clear and compelling testimony. That should have been enough for Thomas – and it should also be enough for us.
    http://www.bethinking.org

    Like

  21. ac February 19, 2016 at 9:18 AM #

    The story of doubting Thomas is sufficient proof that Jesus never talk to his disciples about being resurrected. For if he did there would have been no reason for doubt.
    The empty tomb means nothing.. there can be a number of reasons for the tomb being empty giving the turmoil and events surrounding Jesus death

    Like

  22. Zoe February 19, 2016 at 9:59 AM #

    Jesus spoke openly about what would happen to him: crucifixion and then resurrection from the dead.

    Jesus emphatically declared to His disciples as recorded in Mark, Matthew and Luke, that He would killed, and AFTER three days, be RESURRECTED AGAIN!

    “The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes and be killed, and after three days RISE AGAIN” (Mark 8:31; see also Matthew 17:22; Luke 9:22).

    Of course, the disciples, who were only mortal men, initially, could not fathom the ‘Resurrection’ of Jesus, hence doubted, BUT, after the LIVING proof of SEEING Him ALIVE, again, they then believed.

    And, His terribly TORN, TATTERED, beaten and broken body, was NOW in its Glorified state, after His Resurrection from the dead, WITH the scars on His hands visible, and the scar in His side where the spear was thrust into His Heart.

    FACTS are stubborn things, and only the stubbornly ignorant, refuse to accept them!!!

    So it be!

    Like

  23. ac February 19, 2016 at 10:32 AM #

    Are you purposefully trying to ignore that these three men played important roles in jesus ministry and further more they were men of high intelligence and more likely would have questioned jesus as to what he meant.
    More likely they understood what
    Jesus meant as more often than not jesus in many of his parables use symbolic markings as a way of detracting his opponents
    A way of speaking which over time his disciples would know how to interpret

    Like

  24. Hopi February 19, 2016 at 10:34 AM #

    @Zoee…………How can people all over the world believe Christ was risen by listening to his disciples like Peter who denied him thrice or even doubting Thomas? Isn’t it interesting that when he rose no one was there to physically witness him exiting that tomb? Yet one must believe Paul who wasn’t even a disciple in Christ’s time but who experienced him in a mystical and subjective manner according to what some author supposes. Furthermore one must believe the Creed?
    Zoe this is getting ‘foolisher’ and ‘foolisher’ by the hour ya hear.

    Like

  25. Zoe February 19, 2016 at 12:26 PM #

    @Hopi,

    Zoe this is getting ‘foolisher’ and ‘foolisher’ by the hour ya hear.

    Hopi, this is entirely consistent with those of your ilk, as you have chosen NOT to let the LIGHT, with ALONE dispels DARKNESS, to come in and set you FREE!

    Acts 2:47
    “Praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.”

    Romans 1:16
    “For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.”

    1 Corinthians 1:21
    “For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the FOOLISHNESS of what was preached to save those who believe.”

    1 Corinthians 1:23
    “But we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and FOOLISHNESS to Gentiles,”

    1 Corinthians 1:24
    “But to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.”

    1 Corinthians 1:25
    “For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.”

    1 Corinthians 2:14
    “The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them FOOLISHNESS, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.”

    1 Corinthians 4:10
    “We are fools for Christ, but you are so wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are honored, we are dishonored!”

    2 Corinthians 2:15
    “For we are to God the pleasing aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing.”

    2 Corinthians 4:3
    “And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.”

    2 Thessalonians 2:10
    “And all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.”

    Hebrews 12:2
    “Fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.”

    Like

  26. Vincent Haynes February 19, 2016 at 12:42 PM #

    Zoe February 19, 2016 at 12:26 PM #

    Chuckle……now look at what I came across…..makes for interesting reading……seems that this post is moot as the person under discussion never existed.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjMyb_HoYTLAhUEGh4KHdahCyAQFgg3MAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jesusneverexisted.com%2F&usg=AFQjCNFoO0uszcod9zaISXVAL6u7Mq_YUQ&sig2=_I3N9XGh67fwipiZHNz-Ag

    Like

  27. charles knighton February 19, 2016 at 12:56 PM #

    At one time I looked forward to visits from Jehovah’s Witnesses, as I enjoy the cut and thrust of heated debate. I quickly became weary of such encounters when, backed into a corner on a point of discussion, their response was invariably a version of “That’s how God has ordered things”. As God always seemed unavailable to join us for clarification, end of debate So it was with a sense of deja vu that I read Mr. Graham Vaughn’s response to my letter , “Doubts about Christ’s death” in the Midweek Nation, with his letter “Christ our witness” in the Weekend Nation of February 19. His faith in what is purportedly God’s Word, The Bible, seems to provide his “proof”. But then surely that is the point of faith to begin with: to fill the unbridgeable void between evidence and the entire lack of it.

    A question for Mr. Vaughn: how moral is the following? We have been told of a human sacrifice that took place two thousand years ago, without my wishing it and in circumstances so horrific that, had I been present and in possession of any influence, I would have been duty-bound to try and stop it. In consequence of this murder, my own manifold sins are forgiven me, and I may hope to enjoy everlasting life.

    For a start, and in order to gain benefit of this wondrous offer, I have to accept that I am responsible for the flogging and mocking and the crucifixion, in which I had no say and no part, and agree that every time I decline this responsibility, or that I sin in word or deed, I am intensifying the agony of it.

    However, I am still granted free will with which to reject the offer of vicarious redemption. Should I exercise this choice, however, I face an eternity of torture much more awful than anything endured at Calvary. This foundational tenet of Christianity, that Jesus died for the salvation of whosoever would come, bears a striking resemblance to a common practice of the time. Fear-driven peasants “loaded” all their misdeeds and crimes onto a goat, and then drove the hapless animal into the desert. Our everyday idiom is quite sound in regarding “scapegoating” with contempt. This foundational tenet of Christianity is scapegoating writ large.

    Charles Knighton

    Like

  28. Zoe February 19, 2016 at 1:57 PM #

    “The [basis of the] judgment (indictment, the test by which men are judged, the ground for the sentence) lies in this: the Light has come into the world, and people have loved the darkness rather than and more than the Light, for their works (deeds) were evil.” (John 3:19) Emphasis added

    Its EITHER/OR, but certainly NOT, BOTH/AND!

    Like

  29. Alvin Cummins February 19, 2016 at 6:35 PM #

    Zoe,
    Why were aloes and myrrh taken into the tomb of a recently crucified person…certwinly not for embalming purposes. Check Join

    Like

  30. Vincent Haynes February 19, 2016 at 6:54 PM #

    Alvin Cummins February 19, 2016 at 6:35 PM #

    Chuckle….belated birtday wishes…….so you really believe this chap JC existed?

    Like

  31. are-we-there-yet February 19, 2016 at 7:28 PM #

    Alvin;

    Is your book on Yeshua in ebook format on kindle or other ebook publisher?

    Like

  32. ac February 19, 2016 at 8:31 PM #

    the resurrection story would be debunked by believers as well as non believers ,Jews call it a fable of fallacies and controversial inconsistencies that threatens the foundations of the Christian faith

    Like

  33. Zoe February 19, 2016 at 11:17 PM #

    Alvin Cummins February 19, 2016 at 6:35 PM #
    Zoe,
    Why were aloes and myrrh taken into the tomb of a recently crucified person…certwinly not for embalming purposes. Check Join

    John 19:39-40 tells us another man was with Joseph: Nicodemus (cf. John 3:1-21). Nicodemus was a teacher in Israel, no doubt another member of the Sanhedrin. Both men were prominent in the nation. Verse 39 says Nicodemus “brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes.”

    The Jewish people didn’t embalm their dead; they anointed the body with a heavy load of spices to keep the smell of death from permeating the area until the body was buried. Myrrh was a liquid and aloes was a powder; the two were mixed together. Joseph brought fine linen (Matt. 27:59). The women helped Joseph wrap each limb and the torso of Christ’s body with the fine linen, and then provided a special napkin for His head.

    He laid it in the tomb (v. 60a)

    Like

  34. Alvin Cummins February 20, 2016 at 7:49 AM #

    @Zoe,
    Your explanation does not answer the question. Aloes and Myrrh were not used either as spices or for embalming. They bt were used for their medicinal properties; myrrh (often taken to war to help heal wounds), it has anti-inflammatory and antibacterial properties. Aloes was used to help close wounds. I know this works because when my mum was in her last days (age 97) she started to develop bed sores, and I used to use a poultice of vaseline and aloes, whine when applied helped close the sores. It has also been in use at the polyclinics here to help close diabetic ulcers. So, if these, and according to John, about a hundred pounds,
    The man in the tomb would not have been dead.Nicodemas was not an ordinary man; he was a rich man, befriended by Jesus, and he was also a member of the Sanhedrin, and it was he and Joseph of Armethia; a relative of Mary mother of Jesus, and also very rich, who both applied to Pilate to have the body removed from the cross, and taken to the tomb, prepared in advance. If he were dead, and sealed in the tomb how would the “smell of death permeate the area until he was buried. He was already buried in the tomb. Zoe, your explanations do not compute.
    @ Vincent Haynes, Thanks for your birthday wishes. I comment on anomalies, and write novels. I may not believe in the “hoax”, because I believe that all lotteries are scams. The concept of “resurrection” as a way to eternal life, that is foisted on people, is a lottery.

    @Are-we-there…the book is not yet in e-format, but it will be very soon. This past week and up to yesterday Ihad discussion with my publisher about having it in that format very soon.More information will follow.

    Like

  35. Zoe February 20, 2016 at 12:26 PM #

    @Alvin, Could any man, endure the brutal, tortuous scourging, plus the actual crucifixion procedure, which procedure IS well documented, as Jesus went through, with the final act of PIERCING His side, to rupture His heart, with His death confirmed by the Romans, and still live, to fake death, and just walk out looking fine and normal?

    What kind of irrational logic is that, and now you bring a ‘cherry-picking’ red-herring distractive about Aloes and Myrrh, which could NEVER, EVER, heal the utter BROKEN mess of Jesus’ body and PIERCED heart, ONLY the Miraculous Resurrection from the DEAD, could account for Jesus ALIVE, again, exactly as prophesied hundreds of years before His Incarnation!

    The Spear in the Side

    After Jesus breathed His last, a soldier “pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out” (John 19:34). This unexpected detail in John’s account destroys any possibility of Jesus faking His own death. Medical examiner Dr. Alexander Metherell explained why “blood and water came out”:

    Even before He died … the hypovolemic shock would have caused a sustained rapid heart rate that would have contributed to heart failure, resulting in the collection of fluid in the membrane around the heart, called a pericardial effusion, as well as around the lungs, which is called a pleural effusion.

    The spear apparently went through the right lung and into the heart, so when the spear was pulled out, some fluid—the pericardial effusion and the pleural effusion—came out.

    This would have the appearance of a clear fluid, like water, followed by a large volume of blood, as the eyewitness John described in his gospel. John probably had no idea why he saw both blood and a clear fluid come out—certainly that’s not what an untrained person like him would have anticipated. Yet John’s description is consistent with what modern medicine would expect to have happened.

    John apparently recognized the strangeness of his report. Throughout his recounting of Christ’s arrest, trials, and execution, John delivered detail after detail, explaining what Jesus had gone through.

    Then immediately after mentioning the “blood and water,” John stopped his narration of events to stress to his readers that he really saw blood and water flow from Christ’s side. He wrote,

    “And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe” (John 19:35). It’s almost as though John was telling his readers, “I know this is really strange, but I’m not lying, I really saw blood and water flow.” And while perhaps unbeknownst to John, this brief verse provides modern medical doctors with evidence that demolishes the swoon theory and any other position that claims Jesus did not die on the Cross.

    The Mighty Death Conqueror or the Mighty Fraud?

    The swoon theory enjoyed popular support among liberals for several decades after being introduced in 1828. That all changed when another liberal theologian, David F. Strauss, delivered a fatal blow to the view in A New Life of Jesus (1865).

    It is impossible that a being who had stolen half-dead out of the sepulchre, who crept about weak and ill, wanting medical treatment, who required bandaging, strengthening and indulgence, and who still at last yielded to his sufferings, could have given to his disciples the impression that he was a Conqueror over death and the grave, the Prince of Life, an impression which lay at the bottom of their future ministry.

    Such a resuscitation could only have weakened the impression which he had made upon them in life and in death, at the most could only have given it an elegiac voice, but could by no possibility have changed their sorrow into enthusiasm, [and] have elevated their reverence into worship.16

    Let’s pretend that against all odds, common sense, and medical expertise, Jesus somehow managed to survive the Crucifixion.

    After being taken down from the Cross, His body was wrapped in linen cloths, along with a “mixture of myrrh and aloes, [weighing] about a hundred pounds” (John 19:39). It was then sealed in a cold, dark tomb behind a massive stone. Consider what would still need to occur if Jesus was somehow still alive at this point. He would have to revive in the tomb, unwrap Himself from the linen cloths, roll away the huge stone (weighing over a ton) from the inside of the tomb (a job that required multiple people from outside the tomb), sneak past the guards (or beat them all up), and then appear to the disciples to convince them that He had conquered death.

    But remember, Jesus would not have been able to walk because of the injuries caused by the spike through His feet. Nor would He have been able to crawl on His hands, let alone use them to roll away the stone, since they had just been pierced with spikes. At best, He could perform some sort of military crawl, but even this type of movement would have been acutely painful considering His other injuries caused by the spear and the scourging.

    As Strauss pointed out, no sane person would mistake a barely-clinging-to-life Jesus as the mighty, death-conquering Son of God and then spend the rest of his life risking life and limb to promote Him as the long awaited resurrected Messiah. If anything, seeing their master in such a pitiful state as a result of his elaborate plan gone wrong, the disciples would reject Him outright as a fraud. Yet according to church history, every one of Christ’s apostles faced death or exile for their message.

    So neither the swoon theory nor the Passover plot can account for the dramatic change in the lives of the disciples. The faked death views also fail to account for the conversions of the former skeptics, James the half-brother of Jesus and Saul of Tarsus.

    Conclusion
    Much more could be written concerning the suffering Jesus endured in His final hours. The proposal that Jesus survived the Cross betrays an ignorance of the brutality of Crucifixion, depends upon unbelievably incompetent soldiers at the Cross, fails to account for the evidence, and cannot explain why the disciples would willingly die for their belief that Jesus had risen from the dead.

    Identifying Jesus as a fraud is nothing new; some of His contemporaries claimed He was a deceiver. John 7:12 states, “And there was much complaining among the people concerning Him. Some said, ‘He is good’; others said, ‘No, on the contrary, He deceives the people.’”

    Now 2,000 years later, rebellious men still charge Jesus with deception. It is interesting that the subject of Jesus causes so much stress and discomfort to those who claim He was just a fake. Why would they worry so much about Him? Yet the power of Christ’s Crucifixion and Resurrection still converts sinners to saints, sobers drunks, gives hope to many millions, and saves men and women from lives of sin and eternal destruction.

    Understanding the extent of torture Jesus endured for us helps us appreciate even more “the width and length and depth and height” (Ephesians 3:18) of the love God has shown to us by sending His Son to die in our place. The Father “made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Corinthians 5:21). We do not deserve the grace, mercy, and love God has shown us. Instead, we deserve to bear the punishment Jesus endured and should be separated from God forever because of our sinfulness.

    Sadly, many people scorn the gracious offer of eternal life and often resort to ridiculous ideas like the swoon theory to justify their unbelief. If you are an unbeliever, I urge you to turn from your rebellious ways and call on the mighty Death Conqueror, Jesus Christ. He is the only one who can save you from your sins and is the only hope for this world. http://www.answersingenesis.org

    Like

  36. Alvin Cummins February 20, 2016 at 12:37 PM #

    @Zoe,
    A pleural effusion? In less than two hours? In a person debilitated stated and obviously dehydrated….”I thirst.”…? Come again.
    Eternal life? For what purpose? To spend eternity in purposeless meandering? Does not compute. And those who have been cremated or better yet burnt at the stake, or who would not have been able to repent of their “sins”. Does not compute.

    Like

  37. Georgie Porgie February 20, 2016 at 2:14 PM #

    zOE
    tHE SCIENCE YOU CITE IS SOUND

    THE EFFLUX OF BLOOD AND WATER IS FORENSIC EVIDENCE THAT JESUS HAD DIED

    DONT MIND THE MORON THAT SCOFFS AT THE LIKELY HOOD OF EFFUSIONS

    THAT JESUS DIED ON THE CROSS WAS AMAZING AND IN KEEPING WITH HIS SAYING IN JOHN 1O THAT NO MAN TAKETH MY ;LIFE FROM ME

    ANY MAN SHOULD HAVE DIED LONG BEFORE HE GOT TO THE CROSS IF THEY HAD RECIEVED THE BEATING THAT JESUS GOT

    HOWEVER HE WAS ABLE TO USE THE SAME PHYSIOLOGICAL COMPENSATORY MECHANISMS THAT HE HIMSELF DESIGNED TO CAUSE HIM TO EVEN REACH THE CROSS

    DESPITE THE DEVIL DOING HIS WORSE HE COULD NOT GET THE ROMAN’S TO KILL JESUS

    AS PREDICTED, HE GAVE UP HIS LIFE

    THIRST MEANS THAT ONE IS DEHYDRATED BUT IT DOES NOT RULE OUT FLUID BEING LOCATED IN THE PLEURA OR THE PERICARDIAL SPACE

    Like

  38. ac February 20, 2016 at 2:18 PM #

    The burden of proof lies with those who believe that a physical body can be resurrected from the grave after three days in the ground going through a process of decomposing
    What the church needs to face is reality that the evidence to support such a happening is unfounded and unsupported by scientific evidence
    The church faces a dilemma which cannot withstand knoweldge and understanding that goes beyond one/s abilty to understand the impossible through faith

    Like

  39. Vincent Haynes February 20, 2016 at 3:14 PM #

    Alvin Cummins February 20, 2016 at 12:37 PM #

    Chuckle….lets see how this one goes…..these 2 believers have not given an inch to date against the likes of past bloggers and present ones like BT,Miller,AC,Baffy,Art,etc….you have to hand it to Saul/Paul,a marketing genius par excellance,he has withstood the test of time and created a great myth.

    Like

  40. Bush Tea February 20, 2016 at 4:55 PM #

    @ Vincent
    Skippa, you really scraping the bottom of the barrel – from underneath too…
    …ya going with Alvin…?
    Good luck…

    At least AC, like a stuck clock, may be right for two brief moments every day… but Alvin is more like a man with only a left hand ….he is never right!

    Like

  41. Gabriel February 20, 2016 at 5:28 PM #

    Here is a supposedly well educated Harrisonian/UWI Mona Jamaican taught bajan who can attest to a belief in one who taught his fellow jewish brethren,the way,the truth and the life.but this same medic GP knows not any of his,own ancestors who lived in the 12th century nor in the 13th,nor the 14th,nor the 15th…nor…..nor….

    Like

  42. Vincent Haynes February 20, 2016 at 6:59 PM #

    Bush Tea February 20, 2016 at 4:55 PM #

    Chuckle……ah said,ah seeing how dis one goes,ah nevah did sey ah going wid Alvin.

    Like

  43. ac February 20, 2016 at 8:52 PM #

    here is and excerpt from an opening statement presented by
    Bart D. Ehrman in a debate about the resurrection with William Craigg and other leading theologian Mr Ehrman spent many years as a evangelist preaching and teaching the resurrection but came to the conclusion that the story was composed of inaccuracies and discrepancies

    I want to say at the outset something similar to what he said at the beginning of his speech. I used to believe absolutely everything that Bill just presented. He and I went to the same evangelical Christian college, Wheaton, where these things are taught. Even before that I went to a yet more conservative school, Moody Bible Institute, where “Bible” is our middle name. We were taught these things there even more avidly. I used to believe them with my whole heart and soul. I used to preach them and try to convince others that they were true. But then I began studying these matters, not simply accepting what my teachers had said, but looking at them deeply myself. I learned Greek and started studying the New Testament in the original Greek language. I learned Hebrew to read the Old Testament. I learned Latin, Syriac, and Coptic to be able to study the New Testament manuscripts and the non-canonical traditions of Jesus in their original languages. I immersed myself in the world of the first century, reading non-Christian Jewish and pagan texts from the Roman Empire and before, and I tried to master everything written by a Christian from the first three hundred years of the church. I became a historian of antiquity, and for twenty-five years now I have done my research in this area night and day. I’m not a philosopher like Bill; I’m a historian dedicated to finding the historical truth. After years of studying, I finally came to the conclusion that everything I had previously thought about the historical evidence of the resurrection was absolutely wrong.

    Like

  44. ac February 21, 2016 at 8:20 AM #

    why didn/t the disciples recognize Jesus ?
    it is one of those phenomenon that call for the stretch of one imagination beyond reasons or rationale
    The various reasons giving by the church is elusive in their reasoning and is hell bent on salvaging what is most likely a myth of conjecture with snippets of possibilities designed to be rationale and reasonable for the probing mind to accept yet clouded in doubt and suspicion
    However the missing link which stands like a sore thumb and rubs against the grain of reasonableness or acceptance is that after three days if his body remain intact then his speech or manner thereof would be of immediate recognition to those who knew him for many years given a clue to who he was
    Three days in the grave was not a long time but going against the grain of scientific evidence which the church dismisses as unsustainable proof that he was not resurrected ..then the hard task of those who were a part of his ministry for thirty years and could not recognized Jesus leaves no doubt in the suspecting mind that either there was no resurrection or an impostor took claim to be that of the risen Savior

    Like

  45. Zoe February 21, 2016 at 8:33 AM #

    “Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons.” I Timothy 4:1

    Bart D. Ehrman, is a classic example of what God’s Word, warned about 2000 years ago, in I Timothy 4:1, “Now the Holy Spirit tells us CLEARLY that in the LAST TIMES ( now, this era) some (like Ehrman) will TURN AWAY from the TRUTH faith; they will FOLLOW deceptive spirits and teachings that come from DEMONS.”

    This is to be expected, the END-TIME Apostasy, departing FROM the TRUTH of God’s Word, embracing LIES, falsehood, and utter deception!

    Like

  46. Zoe February 21, 2016 at 8:49 AM #

    Why didn’t the Disciples not recognize Jesus at times, after His Resurrection?

    A second instance in which Jesus was not immediately recognized was when the disciples did not recognize Him when they were out fishing (John 21:4). This could also be related to the distance Jesus might have been from them.

    A third instance is when the two disciples on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24:13-35) did not recognize Jesus until He broke bread. How could these two disciples have walked, talked, and eaten with Jesus without recognizing Him?

    In this instance, it seems that they were supernaturally prevented from recognizing Jesus. Jesus perhaps had taken on a different appearance to keep Himself from being recognized. Why would Jesus have done this? The Bible does not say. Perhaps Jesus “veiled” His identity so the two disciples would truly think through the things Jesus was saying, rather than accepting the teaching blindly, as they likely would have if they had known it was Jesus.

    What we can know for certain is that it was Jesus Himself who appeared to them because of all the testimony of those who saw the resurrected Christ.

    In addition, there was the witness of the remarkable change that took place in the lives of the disciples. Immediately before and after the crucifixion, the eleven apostles were in hiding in fear, yet after spending considerable time with the resurrected Christ, they became fearless evangelists proclaiming the gospel boldly no matter how strong the opposition. In addition, all eventually gave their lives for the sake of the gospel. Only witnessing the resurrected Jesus Christ can account for such a radical change. http://www.gotanswers.org

    Like

  47. ac February 21, 2016 at 9:09 AM #

    However to be fair to Mr. Bart Ehram he stated that most of his life’s work was dedicated to teaching ! studying! and teaching the word of God by conviction
    It is not as if he was an aethethist or agnostic .He was fully
    indoctrinated for many years and like most believers accepted the resurrection story on face value
    The underlying problem with most believers is that they live in a state of denial gripped by fear of a rooted belief that it is better not to question with reason and logical thinking that run the risk of eternal damnation

    Like

  48. ac February 21, 2016 at 9:58 AM #

    BTW what Timothy states is an actuality back then as now realizing that man quest for truth and understanding would cast doubt on those things seen by faith and not by sight
    Timothy was cognizant in his dispensation fully knowledgeable and aware that the time would come when the believer would not escaped being challenged by logic fueled by understanding and more knowledge therfore his challenge to them was to remain fervent not to looking elsewhere but remain steadfast and unwavering in what they have been taught by him
    Needless to say a frightening thought as man has been given a free will of choice for good reason by the same God that Timothy preached

    Like

  49. Alvin Cummins February 22, 2016 at 7:49 AM #

    @GP and Zoe.
    1. How do you know which side the spear thrust was made?
    2. How tall was Jesus? 3. How far off the ground would Jesus’s chest have been off the ground for the spear to be thrust? In other words the height would have resulted on only a superficial wound. 4. It has been documented that persons have survived crucifixion. 5. G.P How do you know the severity of the beating? It is obviously your imagination. The bible says he was ordered to be scourged by Pilate. In order to make the case people like you and Zoe wants to make it as bad as imagination can make it, but there is no evidence of what took place. But read my book and see the plausible evidence I have researched and presented.
    The Bible says he “gave up the ghost, a euphemism for dying. But was he really dead?
    6. “….HOWEVER HE WAS ABLE TO USE THE SAME PHYSIOLOGICAL COMPENSATORY MECHANISMS THAT HE HIMSELF DESIGNED TO CAUSE HIM TO EVEN REACH THE CROSS…”
    Wha t bunch of BULL DOODOO. According to the same Bible, after the scourging he was returned to Pilate and the Sanhedrin, for further questioning and debate by the Sanhedrin. It is obvious the would have taken some time, because it was at this second set of questioning that the decision to free Barnabas was made, after which Pilate condemned him to be crucifies. So he wass not close to death as you postulate, after the scourging.
    I ignore your derision. It is a subterfuge that many adopt when their argument is not logically strong. It should be beneath you, but not unexpected, given your background and inbuilt biases and indoctrination.

    Like

  50. Vincent Haynes February 22, 2016 at 9:07 AM #

    Another rebuttal….interesting.

    http://churchandstate.org.uk/2014/10/author-suggests-jesus-never-existed/

    Like

  51. Alvin Cummins February 22, 2016 at 9:33 AM #

    @ GP, the decision was to free Barrabas, not Barnabas. Typographical error

    Like

  52. Zoe February 22, 2016 at 9:42 AM #

    @Alvin, You are flogging a DEAD horse, in attempting to refute the Life, Death, and Resurrection of The Lord Jesus Christ, many have tried, and failed, because the EVIDENCE, historically, plus the experiential LIFE transforming REALITY, of Jesus’ Disciples, and multiplied MILLIONS upon MILLIONS from the Apostolic age onward, across the World, and increasing daily, are a LIVING testimony to the REALITY of what it means, to KNOW Him, The Lord of Lords, and King of Kings, this is NOT dead religious ritualism, as is in other FALSE religions, this IS* a LIVING, PERSONAL relationship, with HIM, Jesus Christ, who DIED, and ROSE on the third day, and ascended to Heaven, and is seated at the right hand of The Father.

    My life has being transformed from WITHIN, as the same testimony of MILLIONS from every nation across the world, RELIGIOUS indoctrination CANNOT do this, NO! NO! NO!, only a Personal living relationship with the RESURRECTED Savior and Lord, can transform a SINNER, to a life of PEACE, JOY, and PURPOSE, which I have through KNOWING Him, God of very God, who said and declared:

    “If you abide in My Word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall KNOW the TRUTH, and the TRUTH shall make you FREE.” (John. 8:31, 32) Emphasis added.

    There is ONE event in history that is unparalleled in its effect upon the world—the Resurrection of Christ.

    Nothing like this had ever happened before, and nothing since has equaled it. When Jesus rose from the grave, the impact was felt immediately and has continued to reverberate throughout the world. This event shook religions, cultures, and governments, and individuals, too, as one by one, believers have been transformed by Christ’s resurrection power.

    Like

  53. Zoe February 22, 2016 at 10:01 AM #

    When Jesus said, “And you shall KNOW the TRUTH, and the TRUTH shall make you FREE>” (John, 8: 32)

    KNOW, is from the Greek word, ‘ginosko’ Compare ‘prognosis’, ‘gnomic,’ ‘gnomon,’. To perceive, understand, recognize, gain, knowledge, realize, come to KNOW. Ginosko is the knowledge that has an inception, a progress, and an attainment. It is the recognition of TRUTH, by PERSONAL experience.

    Millions in Africa, China, the Middle East, yes, Muslims, Russia, all across South America, and other countries, are coming to KNOW, The Lord Jesus Christ, EXPERIENCING HIM, personally, and being liberated FROM DEAD religions, this IS* the reality of KNOWING Him, which He Died for, (our SINS) and was Resurrected again, for our Justification.

    Like

  54. Georgie Porgie February 22, 2016 at 10:48 AM #

    Alvin Cummins February 22, 2016 at 7:49 AM #
    @GP and Zoe.
    1. How do you know which side the spear thrust was made? NOT RELEVANT FOR SALVATION
    2. How tall was Jesus?NOT RELEVANT FOR SALVATION
    3. How far off the ground would Jesus’s chest have been off the ground for the spear to be thrust?NOT RELEVANT FOR SALVATION
    In other words the height would have resulted on only a superficial wound. CLEARLY THE SERUM WAS SEPARATED FROM THE BLOOD ELEMENTS

    It has been documented that persons have survived crucifixion. SO WHAT
    G.P How do you know the severity of the beating? It is obviously your imagination. ISAIAH PREDICTED THAT HIS VISAGE WAS MARRED MORE THAN ANY MAN
    I GUESS THIS MEANS THE ROMANS MAKED HIS FACE UP WITH CRAYONS

    But read my book and see the plausible evidence I have researched and presented. WHY WOULD I WANT TO READ YOUR BOOK? THE BIBLE IS A BEST SELLER.

    The Bible says he “gave up the ghost, a euphemism for dying. But was he really dead?

    THE WATER AND BLOOD FROM THE SPAR WOUND IS FORENSIC EVIDENCE

    SIR YOU CAN MOCK AS MUCH A YOU LIKE
    I KNOW WHOM I HAVE BELIEVED

    Like

  55. Vincent Haynes February 22, 2016 at 1:06 PM #

    Three loud cheers for ZOE&GP….hip,hip,hooray……..Go to the head of the class of illogic….your lord will bless you and give you ternal life……not sure for what purpose as this religion does not have 70 virgins but loads of angels….hmmmm.

    Alvin valiant effort but you too have fallen short….they remain unshakeable.

    Like

  56. ac February 22, 2016 at 1:57 PM #

    Zoe and GP are parroting a story which has been told many times over and written thirty or more years after mutiple accounts of the crucifixion and ressurrection story was told

    Like

  57. Alvin Cummins February 22, 2016 at 10:38 PM #

    @Vincent Haynes,
    I have not been making an attempt to change those two. As my other would have told them “You are hard mouth cows”. I wrote my book for those who could think for themselves, rationalize, and not accept brainwashing without question. Like the Mormons with their books, a Bible has been placed in every hotel room all over th world. I have presented the findings of researchers, and scientific evidence. I have also given humanness, to an obvious human being, and presented logical explanations for things spoken about by the disciples and apostles who were also human beings. Persons who have been brain washed, and so deeply programmed can never accept alternative views and suggestions. It is always their way. As far as they are concerned, there is no hope for me. So I am consigned to eternal damnation, but at least I will share eternity with them. I may not be drinking milk, sweetened? with honey. They never said what those who do not believe will eat. Ah well, starve for eternity. But to be starved for eternity! How cruel!

    Like

  58. Georgie Porgie February 22, 2016 at 10:47 PM #

    alvin
    how many of your books have you sold?

    Like

  59. Technician February 22, 2016 at 11:10 PM #

    This is still going on on BU????….LOL

    Some things and people never change.

    Like

  60. Alvin Cummins February 23, 2016 at 7:28 AM #

    @GP.

    Many!! What has that got to do with anything? there are copies available now. Just had to put in another order. They are selling.

    Like

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