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The Jeff Cumberbatch Column – Perspectives of Discipline

BU shares the Jeff Cumberbatch Barbados Advocate column – Senior Lecturer in law at the University of the West Indies since 1983, a Columnist with the Barbados Advocate.
Jeff Cumberbatch - New Chairman of the FTC

Jeff Cumberbatch – New Chairman of the FTC

[…]

I have frequently sought to apply the Shakespearean aphorism, “Uneasy lies the head that wears a crown” to the leaders from time to time of the local Opposition parties,

especially given the contrast with the comparatively comfortable tenure of the corresponding Prime Minister who, while not theoretically immune from challenge, holds in in his absolute discretion the power of appointment to, and disappointment from, Cabinet posts and, even more significant, as we have discovered, that of the decision as to when precisely there may be a dissolution of Parliament and an ensuing general election.

The Opposition leader, on the other hand, endures constant scrutiny as to his or her capacity to gain the reins and spoils of government for the party in future and, substantially bereft of the powers of largesse, thereby has a much more precarious hold on leadership.

It struck me during the past week that the same aphorism, for entirely different reasons, might also apply to the individual who holds the honourable portfolio of Attorney General of Barbados. This is because we appear always keen to endorse international treaties, especially those dealing with modern human rights. The faecal matter comes into direct contact with the ventilator [It’s a Sunday paper!] however, when the time comes for enactment of the provisions of those treaties into local law. You see, for all our protestation, the Barbadian concept of human rights is still stuck somewhere in the 19th century or earlier, owing to a heady cocktail of nostalgic superstition and a patent conservatism that does not accommodate, easily or at all, modern Western notions of the rights of the individual to dignity and autonomy.

Given this scenario, the Attorney General, the minister charged with the leadership of state legislative policy, is immediately placed into a situation of “damned if you do, damned if you don’t”. Should that officer remain content to leave our voluntary undertaking in the international context only, to not refer it to the competent authority for relevant legislation, and to be prepared to face the censure of those bodies responsible for the oversight of compliance with the treaty? Or should he or she seek to have the appropriate statute enacted so as to ensure the citizen enjoys the rights guaranteed by the treaty and face, instead, the inevitable protests and possible electoral censure of a vocal citizenry that views any concession to a modern perspective of human rights that does not comport with the prevailing culture as heresy?

On at least two occasions during the past year, this dilemma has eventuated. First, there was the attempt to comply with a ruling of the Inter-American Court of Human Rights [IACHR] that the mandatory death penalty that existed locally was in contravention of the American Convention on Human Rights to which we had acceded, and should be repealed. Of course this initiative did not meet with universal acclaim, although it might have been reasonably thought that the notion of the punishment fitting the crime, against which this principle of mandatoriness clearly offends, would appeal to all fair-minded persons.

Given the mostly negative reception to this measure, the Attorney General must be contemplating with some degree of dread therefore the forthcoming repeal or amendment of section 26, also ordered by the IACHR, and the consequent eventual abolition of the death penalty in order to comply fully with our statal obligations under the American Convention.

Barbados has also voluntarily acceded to, without provocation, the Convention on the Rights of the Child. According to Article 19 of this treaty, “States Parties shall take all appropriate legislative, administrative, social and educational measures to protect the child from all forms of physical or mental violence, injury or abuse, neglect or negligent treatment, maltreatment or exploitation, including sexual abuse, while in the care of parent(s), legal guardian(s) or any other person who has the care of the child…” [Emphasis added].

Now, unless there is a different meaning of “violence” in some unpublished Barbadian dictionary somewhere, this provision comes into immediate conflict with any practice or law that permits the infliction of pain on an individual, including a child, without his or her consent. Incidentally, the offences of domestic violence and robbery with violence, to name two, both connote that the victims have suffered some degree of pain against their wishes. I am not aware of any concept of violence that depends solely for its definition upon the intention of the perpetrator, although I concede that my vocabulary may be limited in this regard. Further, given the limited power of consent possessed by a child, it would appear that the mere infliction of pain should suffice to satisfy the definition of “violence” in the Convention.

Thus, the Attorney General was acting strictly in accordance with our international obligations when he proposed last week to remove the sanction of corporal punishment from the Juvenile Justice Act. But to quote Paul Keens Douglas, “who tell he do that?” Some, who seem for one reason or another, to “have cocoa in the sun” concerning these matters, immediately foresaw the threat that such an initiative might pose logically to the hoary practice of corporal punishment in some schools and, armed with apposite biblical references, appeals to sympathetic authority and doomsday jeremiads, they treated us once again to postulations as to why any such action would be the worst scourge that officialdom could ever inflict on the Barbadian way of life.

It might speak volumes about the nature of local civilisation that a majority of our people remain so keen to defend a practice that, for all its vaunted effectiveness at shaping discipline and building character, would appear to have failed miserably, given current circumstances.

And the biblical reference scarcely surprises. After all, it appears that throughout history, similar references have been used or abused by various entities to justify almost any obscenity of man’s inhumanity to man –Slavery, the Jim Crow laws, the prohibition of marriage between the races, apartheid, the subordination of women, discrimination, ISIS…That a similar reference might now be found to justify violence against children would thus seem to be par for the course. Happy to relate, our modern legislative existence is not governed by these precepts as interpreted by any given soothsayer.

The truth is that the contrary, though seemingly prevailing view, to the abolition of corporal is based on a combination of nostalgia (in the true sense of that word), arrogance in the belief that it has contributed significantly to making the proponent a superior being and saved him or her from a life of crime or worse, apparently discounting that many criminals would have been treated similarly in their youth, a reluctance to accept its material contribution to the current predilection for violence among our youth, and more than a touch of floutlawry in that having previously adhered to the Convention, we should now seek to excuse our continued contravention of it on the ground of sovereignty.

I am aware that my views on this matter will not resonate with the majority of readers of the Barbados Advocate. That, however, is of no consequence. It would be a boring world indeed if ever there were to be universal agreement on every issue.

PS: As a follow up to last week’s essay, the “Agard Affair”, as I termed it then, appears headed for the courts. Once there, it will raise some intriguing legal issues, among them, the need for the prior exhaustion of available remedies; the susceptibility of a political party to judicial review; the degree of compliance necessary in that context with the rule against bias; and, of course, the consequence of any finding in favour of the claimant. One way or another, it will be a landmark decision in local political life.

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70 Comments on “The Jeff Cumberbatch Column – Perspectives of Discipline”

  1. Caswell Franklyn December 6, 2015 at 9:42 PM #

    Jeff

    Do not feel sorry for this Attorney General or any other. They create these embarrassing situations out of stupidity. The problem comes when ministers of government attend international meetings and sign treaties that they don’t fully understand or do not appreciate the consequences of signing.

    Like

  2. Gabriel December 6, 2015 at 10:33 PM #

    Meanwhile,in Trinidad and Tobago,there is a call in the Trinidad Express yesterday December 5th for the return of the cat ‘o nine tails and for public floggings to deal with the high rate of crime in the twin republic.Our current GG was the last judicial officer to order its use in 1991 on a ‘little notorious criminal’ who was breaking into peoples’ homes throughout the length and breath of Barbados.T’nT however wants its use in curbing serious crimes such as rape,manslaughter,gun violence and such offences.

    Like

  3. Sargeant December 6, 2015 at 11:05 PM #

    @Caswell

    Au contraire the Minister(s) know exactly what they are signing, when Ministers attend conferences they know (or ought to know) what is on the Agenda and what is expected of each country prior to the start of discussions. The groundwork is done before the actual talks begin and the signing of agreements at the end of the meetings are mere formalities.

    Ministers also know that contentious matters should be discussed in Cabinet prior to attending so they have Gov’t approval before committing the Gov’t to any decision. Perhaps Barbados wants to be viewed as a “progressive” jurisdiction rather than some backwater third rate island. However, they also want to appease their county’s citizens who as Jeff pointed out are conservative in their outlook and view legislation enacted in some other places e.g. homosexual rights as obscene.

    They are discovering that “you can’t have your cake and eat it too”. Some countries because of their wealth and relative importance e.g. Saudi Arabia, China can ignore these International “obligations” and withstand any pressure while Barbados is threatened with sanctions if it doesn’t comply.

    Bottom line you can’t have your cake and eat it too.

    Like

  4. Bush Tea December 6, 2015 at 11:20 PM #

    Lucky for you Jeff, you may never have to deal with really difficult children…. most of us don’t …and therefore most would NEVER really have the need, vision, or justification, to use corporal punishment as a disciplinary tool.

    However to make it illegal to use what may well be a last resort, or indeed a NEEDED OPTION in specific cases, in instilling discipline in an individual, and within an organisation of juveniles is short-sighted and idiotic…and guaranteed to result in MORE EXTREME measures being needed to control those subsequently failed adults that result.

    Those ‘advanced’ societies that we follow so blindly do not inflict corporal punishment…. Instead, they install metal detectors and police officers in their schools; they wait a few years and fill their commercialised prisons with the failures; they shoot down their youths in the streets; and they militarise their police and SWAT teams instead.

    Fortunately, Bushie’s parents were intuitively MUCH more sanguine than you are about the value of this disciplinary tactic and they applied it as needed (which was truly quite liberally with the young bushman). Were they to be guided by advice from your good self, the JA AG, or the Albinos of the great North, all like now so, poor Bushie would have been in Dodds (getting or giving ‘corporal’ punishment), creating havoc somewhere else in this world….or driving a wicked ZR on the Silver Hill route…🙂

    …and BBE would be short by one whacker welding yardboy…

    Despite all intent to follow the parent’s lead in this regard, the Bushman has NEVER found the need, or even the opportunity, to apply it with ANY of the children he has had the privilege to parent… but would be FOOLISH to think that this should be a UNIVERSAL rule…

    Can you imagine what Vincent would be like in the absence of a regular cut-ass as a kid?
    …and how about Dompey?… who, despite supreme efforts by a dedicated teacher at St. Leonards, has turned out to be….. well Dompey…

    Forget AC though….
    The only solution for what SHE has …is CAPITAL punishment… not corporal…
    ha ha ha

    Liked by 1 person

  5. Sargeant December 6, 2015 at 11:29 PM #

    @BT

    Those ‘advanced’ societies that we follow so blindly do not inflict corporal punishment…. Instead, they install metal detectors and police officers in their schools; they wait a few years and fill their commercialised prisons with the failures; they shoot down their youths in the streets; and they militarise their police and SWAT teams instead.
    ++++++++++

    Could you put a number on these “advanced” societies?

    Like

  6. Bush Tea December 6, 2015 at 11:35 PM #

    @ Sargeant
    Yes….. so can you.

    Like

  7. Georgie Porgie December 6, 2015 at 11:40 PM #

    let us note that the son of dr Spock committed suicide

    Like

  8. Bush Tea December 6, 2015 at 11:49 PM #

    Was that not a grandson GP?

    Like

  9. Sargeant December 6, 2015 at 11:50 PM #

    @Bush T

    Just as I thought, facts no….generalisation and evasion yes

    Like

  10. Bush Tea December 7, 2015 at 12:02 AM #

    @ Sargeant
    Stupid question…. Jeff made reference to the IACHR and everyone knows of Amnesty International’s role and influence….
    If you want facts use google….this is a RUM SHOP…
    besides…
    Bushie is not here to pander to the whims of NCOs
    after all…it is not for those of your ilk to reason why…

    Like

  11. Simple Simon December 7, 2015 at 12:07 AM #

    @Bush Tea December 6, 2015 at 11:20 PM “Fortunately, Bushie’s parents were intuitively MUCH more sanguine than you are about the value of this disciplinary tactic and they applied it as needed (which was truly quite liberally with the young bushman)….Despite all intent to follow the parent’s lead in this regard, the Bushman has NEVER found the need, or even the opportunity, to apply it with ANY of the children he has had the privilege to parent,”

    You were very luck that Mr.s Bushie decided to marry you, and bore you intelligent children

    Like

  12. Simple Simon December 7, 2015 at 12:14 AM #

    @Jeff Cumberbatch “Barbados has also voluntarily acceded to, without provocation, the Convention on the Rights of the Child. According to Article 19 of this treaty, “States Parties shall take all appropriate legislative, administrative, social and educational measures to protect the child from all forms of physical or mental violence, injury or abuse, neglect or negligent treatment, maltreatment or exploitation, including sexual abuse, while in the care of parent(s), legal guardian(s) or any other person who has the care of the child…”

    And about time too. Children who end up at Dodds have likely been beaten enough already. We don’t beat adults who have been convicted of murder, rape, violent acts nor political foolishness, so what are we doing beating children?

    Like

  13. Sargeant December 7, 2015 at 12:27 AM #

    @Bush Tee

    Stop trying to hide under Jeff’s skirt, you made a statement that you are unable to defend which is typical of many of your ramblings, a name change is imminent- Bull Shitter fits your bill.

    Of course this is a rum shop, how do I know? You are the village drunk aren’t you?

    Like

  14. de Ingrunt Word December 7, 2015 at 12:34 AM #

    @Sargeant at 11:29 PM “Could you put a number on these “advanced” societies?”

    The Bushman is on point on this matter re “Those ‘advanced’ societies that we follow so blindly do not inflict corporal punishment…. they shoot down their youths in the streets; and they militarise their police and SWAT teams instead.”

    No need to get deeply fixated on numbers…the big maguffy is the USA. Canada and the UK may not be as draconian as their US brethren but the pervasiveness and multiple numbers of the problem in the US so far dwarfs the others that we can discount them completely.

    I fully appreciate Jeff C’s argument but in my view it should be a decision available to parents. In the modern era it is crtainly not about administering ‘lashes’ in the manner done by our parents. And of course many other methodologies to modify unacceptable behaviour are also used.

    However, as the Bushman suggested I also think its disingenuous for society (US) to rule that one cannot administer a hard spank or two to direct your child as an immediate and prompt attention-getter/direction changer and yet it’s par for the course that school children as young as four or five years are removed from school in HAND-CUFFS for arguable standard school yard altercations.

    Immediately they are given a bad impression of authority and a possible ‘fear’ of cops. In our youth those school yard issues would be handled by a principle (with a flogging if required) and the child moved on. Did some of those issues or floggings psychologically affect the child. I imagine they did.

    But I am positive that EVERY instance of a police intervention in school definitely will affect the average child worst that a cane on a derriere.

    Like

  15. Sargeant December 7, 2015 at 1:02 AM #

    @DIW
    So you have a new role? If you believe BT wanted to say the US that’s what he should have written rather than generalize, incidentally Jeff made a few points in his column among which were Capital Punishment. Not to put too fine a point but why don’t you write that the US is hypocritical if it insists on outlawing Corporal punishment while it has Capital punishment on its books?

    Like

  16. Hants December 7, 2015 at 1:11 AM #

    Many Bajans have brutalized their children and called it discipline.

    There is a thin line between administering corporal punishment and sadism.

    Like

  17. Artaxerxes December 7, 2015 at 1:22 AM #

    An amazing anomaly in law and politics is that, when in government, politicians formulate and enact laws to govern a specific situations, “in the best interest” of Barbadians.

    However, when they demit office, the lawyers who were formerly ministers of government, would exploit all loop holes in those laws in an effort to get their clients acquitted.

    For example, AG Brathwaite has been talking about the surge in gun crimes and his disagreement with murder accused being granted bail. He is suggesting changes be made to existing laws to adequately respond to these crimes.

    If the DLP were to lose “power” and Brathwaite reverts to his “substantive” post of attorney at law, in the event of him representing a client who has been charged for murder, he would seek to exploit loop holes in the law he proposed, so as to argue why his client should be granted bail.

    Like

  18. Georgie Porgie December 7, 2015 at 1:53 AM #

    Sargeant December 7, 2015 at 12:27 AM #
    @Bush Tee

    Stop trying to hide under Jeff’s skirt, you made a statement that you are unable to defend which is typical of many of your ramblings, a name change is imminent- Bull Shitter fits your bill.

    Of course this is a rum shop, how do I know? You are the village drunk aren’t you?

    SARGE I STILL CANT UNDERSTAND WHY YOU DIDNT PLAY CRICKET FOR BIM AND DE WINDIES
    YOU MEK JOEL LOOK LIKE A SPINNER

    Like

  19. de Ingrunt Word December 7, 2015 at 2:10 AM #

    @Sargeant, you have eyes and thus I believe you can see well. As I saw it, I was not aware of any advanced society which fits the description other than the US. The fact that blogger BT spoke in general terms was irrelevant.

    I also firmly believe that what happens in the US re children, school security and discipline is hypocritical so the comments resonated for me. Thus not fulfilling any particular role; just giving my opinion.

    Capital punishment and corporal punishment do not create a hypocritical basis of disconnect to reality in my view.

    Jeff’s essay in the main was about corporal punishment. Yes he spoke on other issues as a lead-in but seven of his 13 paragraphs (the last one, the post script, not counted) dealt with the subject of ‘violence’ to children (corporal punishment) re the UN conventions.

    @Hants, yes that’s correct. Corporal punishment over-done is definitely brutality. Corporal punishment properly done is a stern, reasonable method of discipline.

    It’s not politically correct to even suggest that you would give your a child a sharp spank. Discipline is obviously multifaceted and if society in this era finds a spank so completely abhorrent and destructive to a child’s development then so be it. I find it disingenuous.

    Like

  20. balance December 7, 2015 at 5:04 AM #

    “Sargeant December 6, 2015 at 11:50 PM #

    @Bush T

    Just as I thought, facts no….generalisation and evasion yes”

    This is not synonymous with Bushie alone. It is a general rule of thumb on Bu. We prefer to deal in speculation and thumb our chests. No serious debate or response at all is usually forthcoming to factual submissions.

    Like

  21. David December 7, 2015 at 5:18 AM #

    @Jeff

    There is also the troubling issue of treaties not enacted in local law being discussed by a probing media and citizenry. The AG always gets a pass. You may recall the new domestic abuse act was promised for some time now.

    Like

  22. Piece Uh De Rock Yeah Right December 7, 2015 at 5:33 AM #

    @ Jeff Cumberbatch

    As usual provocative and providing occasion for de ole man to go to the dictionary 3 times and I will wait to see if certain people who were recently accused of taking pot shots at your “ambiguous” opinions might venture here and posit any apposite remarks. (De first time I use that word in 84 years)

    Among your usual many pronged topics for discussion, you posed an interesting remark that while seemingly directed to Adriel Dimwit, Attorney General and his department’s inability to enact many of these treaties into law has, much unlike your normal perspicacity, missed 3 key pieces (no relations to me) regarding this purposed stasis.

    The first is an adverb or adjective per diem – a Latin phrase meaning “by the day.” – traveling sales reps or government workers often are paid a per diem, meaning an allowance out of which to cover daily expenses while traveling. You may need to speak to the Auditor General regarding this budget line and the $$s racked up in these see the world pursuits that ministers, their spouses, and their outside wummens enjoy on the government’s books

    The second is prestige.

    While you are yourself not a pretentious man there are those men ( I did not say former Garrison Mathematics dunces nor did I repeat what Caswell said bout not passing any of his Social Science courses) but there are those men who need to be seen hobknobbing with big up presidents and legal luminaries in Geneva or the exotic places that these conventions are held.

    Finally and most importantly, did you ever play “Tonk” or “Kalooki”???

    You strike me as a man of all seasons, with no pretentions, who “been dere” and, unlike de CEO at de FTC, is not ashamed of your beginnings. By de way, how tings going up dere? You ent tell dem dat you want tuh see de contracts by which dem all gots S6 cell phones pun reduced plans from Cable and Wireless, sorry Lime, sorry Flow, sorry de new company dat soon gine buy dem out?? and dat de FTC paying fuh dem and dem family? You ent gots to reply officially, jes sen some confidential document tuh “PUDR reporting Lies at yahoo.com” and it well taken care of

    In Tonk dere is a side game call “High or Low Spades” where a man kin bet dat he got low card.

    How dis “Tonk” connect tuh we matter Jeff? You dun know dat de ole man is ramble.

    Monism and Dualism in International Law. You is a legal luminary, de ole amn does jes copy from de internet “In a pure monist state, international law does not need to be translated into national law it is just incorporated and has effect automatically in national or domestic laws. The act of ratifying an international treaty immediately incorporates the law into national law; and customary international law is treated as part of national law as well.”

    So de pint dat de ole man mekking is dat while dese successive ministers adhering tuh dis pattern dat you seeing uh signing de Treaty, while getting de per diems and getting dem outside wummens to travel wid dem tuh dese exotic places, and booking extra rooms fuh de young tings dem pun de same floor, and hobnobbing wid 1st world cuntry legal minds, and mekking kickback deals fuh cuntsultancies dat end up mekking de body Dean at Cave Hill, de main ting is dat you meks de international world believe dat you is on board to all dese IAHCR rights en ting, but, pun de side, you doing dat side ting like in Tonk, and you gots a nex game going…

    Dis mek sense to you? cause I dun lost meself and I write um/ so you dun know dat Adriel Nitwit, Dale Smiley Teets, Marshall (Prime Minister elect? of de dogs are looking for living specimens no disrespect to the victims or family of the victims at Arch Cot) and of course we girl Mia of the NEC troika current and former Attorneys General of Barbados

    Like

  23. Piece Uh De Rock Yeah Right December 7, 2015 at 5:39 AM #

    Looka Blogmaster,

    I tek long to type dat entry, real long and you come jes so and type um in four lines?? dat ent fair man!!! I vex, you know how long it tek an ole man touh hold he bladder and write dat? and doan mek too much noise pun de ipad fuh de Madam tuh tell me “tun off dat blasted light and get some sleep, Methusulah” (she tek to nicknaming me de same ting de young children at de church calling me – I gine axe Jeff if dat is grounds fuh me carrying she befo de Convention fuh Human Rights fuh violence tuh ole menses!!)

    Like

  24. Piece Uh De Rock Yeah Right December 7, 2015 at 7:43 AM #

    By the way David, my 5.39 a.m. post is a bit of levity as are all my posts levity to be taken in the vein of “if we slumbers have offended, think but this and all be mended, that we have but slumbered here, while these visions did appear…”.

    I noticed of late that peeple here have been taking things real seriously including Bradsahw/Deflon and Ms. Cox

    Like

  25. Bush Tea December 7, 2015 at 8:30 AM #

    LOL…
    NCOs do tend to have a ball when the REAL officers are asleep…
    But night can only run til day catch um…

    @ Sargeant
    Bushie may indeed be the village drunk, (having hit a smooth wine last night) but remember the drunk will wake up sober. The village idiot will awake next day just as foolish as you are making yourself look…

    @ Dee Ingrunt Word… Thanks for explaining to the NCO that the number and identity of ‘advanced’ countries in the above is a NON-POINT…… apparently this is the level of debate in the NCO’s mess…

    Clearly the Sargeant …and the GP joker, both have clothes hanging out to dry – are are therefore diligently looking for rain…. what they may get is a good whacking in their collective asses…

    Imagine GP talking about FACTS … .after interjecting the KNOWN LIE, that Dr. Spock’s son committed suicide …on this SAME blog… well well well!!!

    Perhaps now that they are fully awake they will do a reread …and apologise to the bushman..🙂

    @ Simple Simon
    Was Bushie ‘lucky’? …or blessed?
    The righteous actions of wise parents pass on for generations…. as do the foolishness of the misguided…..

    @ balance
    This is not synonymous with Bushie alone. It is a general rule of thumb on Bu. We prefer to deal in speculation and thumb our chests. No serious debate or response at all is usually forthcoming to factual submissions.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Generally true….BUT….
    Where ..EXACTLY… in a comments section of an anonymous blog, does ANYONE with intelligence expect that commenters will list references, specifics, details and sources?
    Who the hell goes into a rum shop with an encyclopedia?
    Shiite man, Zoe attempted to take that approach and was harassed into dropping it… and to speaking off the cuff….
    Only a confirmed, low-rank, army-grunt could seriously take such a stand…..aided by a lonely, disgruntled, exiled, scholar – one awaiting imminent rapture so that he can make all those up in heaven miserable as shiite with his constant mournings and CAPITALS….. ha ha ha LOL

    Liked by 1 person

  26. ac December 7, 2015 at 9:20 AM #

    Bush shit you have shown a propensity to be prejuidice on the subject of Corporal punishment it is obvious that your unscholarly input of rants are rooted in a by gone era of tasteless and uncultured solutions

    Like

  27. Sargeant December 7, 2015 at 9:27 AM #

    @DIW

    There have been several blogs about Capital punishment on this blog (you can check them out), we shouldn’t wait to have our positions on this issue dictated by other countries. My position is they beat slaves didn’t they? Why in 2015 should there a debate about inflicting pain on children to correct behavior? Why should a relic of the Roman Coliseum or slavery etc. be still acceptable today? Are there any measurable results that Corporal punishment impacts behavior in a positive manner for any extended period?

    Some Barbadians are full of old wives tales about the effect of Corporal punishment on children or they fall back on the excuse that it is a rite of passage since they received it as children so their offspring will derive benefits from same.

    Bush T is welcome to his opinion that a 2×4 a day keeps the jailors away, perhaps he should converse with the inmates at Dodds.

    There is a debate to be had about the US and incarceration of children but it is simplistic to position lack of corporal punishment as a factor and overlook race and poverty. The US is a complicated country where laws differ from State to State as well as locality to locality and I am not going to get bogged down in the weeds with that discussion on this occasion.

    Like

  28. de Ingrunt Word December 7, 2015 at 11:05 AM #

    @Sargeant at 9:27, absolutely perfectly said: “The US is a complicated country where laws differ from State to State as well as locality to locality and I am not going to get bogged down in the weeds with that discussion on this occasion.” For all the excellent reasons you noted I do not link the question of corporal punishment directly to the societal disciplines which lead to prison .

    Corporal intervention is but one aspect of discipline and even more important one minor tool in a parent’s evolutionary process in modifying behaviour and developing his/her child to adulthood. And for that reason I firmly believe it is incredulous that the state can step into my bailiwick to dictate that I am an abusive parent because I spank my child.

    It is not a question of a 2×4 keeping the jailers way. Your remarks and those of many people who speak of corporal punishment speaks to criminal level abuse and wrongly obfuscates a viable measure of discipline that is used very sparingly or not at all by most parents.

    To compare those who may spank to slave masters is beyond perplexing, hyperbolic and really not pertinent to the issue of parents and disciplining a child. Corporal punishment in the home (which is my point of comment) should be left there to be used by sensible parents. Sensibly, of course.

    It cannot stop or deter criminality in itself just as non-physical disciplinary methods by themselves can’t either. Nor can a fundamental flogging create an abusive adult. Life is always about practical moderation.

    As you suggested don’t let us get bogged down in weeds or tall-grass hyperbole.

    Anyhow, this era of experts have determined that we are all abusers waiting to ponce and there is absolutely no place for physical force and parenting towards a child. Incredulous BS, but so it is. We modulate and move on.

    Liked by 1 person

  29. Bush Tea December 7, 2015 at 12:21 PM #

    Shiite man!!
    Bushie LOVES it when DIW waxes HOT and to the point….!!!

    Like

  30. Hants December 7, 2015 at 1:03 PM #

    Any of you remember the leather straps that were used to beat the crap out of school

    children in the 50s and 60s ?

    Like

  31. Hants December 7, 2015 at 1:06 PM #

    http://www.corpun.com/picpar.htm

    Like

  32. Hants December 7, 2015 at 1:11 PM #

    From : REMEMBERING WHAT WAS BAJAN
    Submitted by Sapidillo

    “Some male teachers use to soak the leather straps in water, or in some kind of liquid? Female teachers use to put together more than one ruler, and with your hand stretch out, she would give at least 3 lashes with the side of the ruler in the palm of your hand. Some used to give an option how you want to take the licks, either in your back or in your hand”

    Like

  33. Piece Uh De Rock Yeah Right December 7, 2015 at 1:34 PM #

    @ Bush Tea

    He DIW got me clicking Like and show me name (to whiching you notice dat when good pint get mek bout Mia, one way or de Nex, even Legion does daon vote to show whu she name is?)

    And dem nincompoops does come heah saying dat dem feel dat we should write we real names pun de blog!!

    You evah heah so much foolishness Bush Tea???

    De nex ting dem gine do is like whu De Ministah Uh Sidewalks do, one Patrick Toad, in We House Of Assembly, and ask de speaker that they pass a Bill mekking it Cumpulsory dat everbody in de house declare dem sexual Orientation!!!

    Yes sireeeee pun national TV, dat is whu dat ingrunt representative uh de City uh Bridgetown say yes sireee dat is whu one uh de PIMPs say, no not dat sorta pimp I mean one uh de People in My Parliament.

    I am reliably informed dat Ronald We Jonesing (de chilrun are is reading well) Jerome (I like dem) Wellcut (if you get my drift) and Georgia Pigrim de Shotokan Karateka fellah dat kiba dachi, round house, kick stupid (dat is one uh de AC personalities) all seconded~~ de motion (dem tildes is tuh signify shrilly voices)

    Like

  34. Gabriel December 7, 2015 at 9:53 PM #

    As far as I am aware my kids have broken that flogging bit.Being canajun the grands are very quick to affirm their rights even at 6 and 7.They are so taught at school.Even without that my Dad was very sparing in use of the rod and we were put in a corner to stand what seemed for a lifetime while cricket was being played on the ‘pasture’.More punishment..

    Like

  35. ac December 7, 2015 at 10:19 PM #

    There are many sociological ,Physical and well as physchological problems associated with corporal punishment such as depression, attention defecit but worst of all it becomes a learned pattern of behaviour which is pass on from generation to generation and manifest in adult problems with deadly consequences and the latter is why the calls for total elimination of Corporal punishment
    Professional see trends and analysis them by cause and effect

    Like

  36. Bush Tea December 7, 2015 at 10:48 PM #

    @ AC
    There are many sociological ,Physical and well as physchological problems associated with corporal punishment such as depression, attention defecit
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    In that case, somebody must has had a field day cutting your ass….
    We know how Dompey got messed up at St Leonards…. who fd you up bozie…?
    f
    d=(fIXEd)

    @ Piece
    DIW is full of potential…
    Just that he has soaked up too much of this Canadian ‘mishy-mashie’, ‘mumbo-jumbo’ shiite about never offending ANYONE…and always looking for political correctitude…
    Lotta shiite!! Bushie calls a spade a spade….and who don’t like it, just need to duck and cover…. there is always a little space under the whacker string… LOL

    You ask …. “You evah heah so much foolishness Bush Tea???”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    IF !!!???
    Boss, foolishness is the ‘wisdom’ of this current world. It is endemic and all-pervasive Piece… Shiite man…AC could easily become the Anti-Christ that will run the whole world…. boss fool that she is….🙂

    Liked by 1 person

  37. ac December 7, 2015 at 10:59 PM #

    bush shit u are the perfect example why there is a call for total elimination of corporal punishment.Your words speak louder than actions no one dares tostand in your presence and oppose your views. Exhibit A the bush wacker

    Like

  38. Bush Tea December 7, 2015 at 11:03 PM #

    @ AC
    Those two sentences do not follow logically.
    However that is normal for you….
    So thank you …🙂

    Liked by 1 person

  39. ac December 7, 2015 at 11:22 PM #

    There is absolutely nothing positive that anyone can say with certainty Corporal Punishment has done in building a society.
    The jails are still overcrowded .Woman and children are still abused adults are still thieving and cusing and doing whatever they like most or all came out of an era where corporal punishment was the norm

    Like

  40. Sargeant December 8, 2015 at 12:00 AM #

    @DIW
    You wrote “The Bushman is on point on this matter re “Those ‘advanced’ societies that we follow so blindly do not inflict corporal punishment….”
    And
    @Sargeant, you have eyes and thus I believe you can see well. As I saw it, I was not aware of any advanced society which fits the description other than the US. The fact that blogger BT spoke in general terms was irrelevant
    ++++++++++++++
    Some would call it serendipity but while perusing the Washington Post today I saw an article on this very topic, the US does inflict Corporal punishment in schools which gives the lie to Mr. Infallible’s assertion to the contrary. It is legal in 19 States and guess which segment of society bears the brunt of Corporal punishment? All things being equal I would bet that the lower echelons of Bajan society would also bear a disproportionate burden when it comes to the administering of Corporal punishment in schools. The Principals dare not lay their hands on the sons or daughters of certain people.

    Mr. Infallible you are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts not even in the rum shop.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/parents-allege-corporal-punishment-at-blue-ribbon-school-in-maryland/2015/12/06/cc022852-8897-11e5-be8b-1ae2e4f50f76_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-more-top-stories_spanking7am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory

    Like

  41. Hants December 8, 2015 at 12:04 AM #

    Like

  42. Hants December 8, 2015 at 12:07 AM #

    De fella in dah straw hat sih Desalination will solve the rising sea level.

    I laugh until I could hardly breathe.

    Like

  43. Hants December 8, 2015 at 10:18 AM #

    @ David did you listen to Kellman’s proposal to lower the rising sea levels?

    I posted the video above so you can hear him. I thought he was trying to “crack a joke”.

    Like

  44. Well Well & Consequences December 8, 2015 at 12:07 PM #

    Hants..my daughter rolled her eyes at that one…lol. can’t make that stuff up, not even if you tried.

    Like

  45. Hants December 8, 2015 at 12:49 PM #

    @ Well Well & Consequences,

    I am sure you will explain to your daughter that some adults are less intelligent than she is even though said adults are in positions of power.

    Like

  46. balance December 8, 2015 at 12:59 PM #

    SILVERTORCH
    HOME

    Octoba ending so dat mean dat Mummy and me soon gine town ta buy de cloth ta mek my Christmas dress. I can’t wait ta see wha kinda dress I getting dis year. I already tell Mummy wha kind I want and I hope she let me have it.

    The preparation for Christmas and our Independence celebrations were what we had to look forward to during the month of November. Some people started as early as October to buy the materials to make new curtains and clothes for their family.

    The dressmakers and tailors were busy at work on the old sewing machines to be sure that everyone was well outfitted for Christmas.

    The men and boys were hard at work painting the house and weeding the yard. By this time all the furniture in the front house (living room) was piled into the middle of the room and covered with a cloth ready for the paint job. The week before Christmas the floor was polished and ready for furniture to be replaced but that was not done till Christmas Eve.
    The week before Christmas, the men went to the ‘marl hole’ and dug marl to spread all over the front yard.

    A marl hole…some were smaller.

    De sun use tah hurt yah eyes looking at the marl in de yard. We sure use tah have ah white Christmas.

    Work was non- stop, the guinea corn had to be picked, dried and ground to make the jug-jug( a dish similar to cou-cou made with minced pigeon peas, salt meat and guinea corn). Cassava had to be grated, and dried into flour for the pone. We had so much to do before the big day.

    The grater we used.

    A big part of the celebration was the church’s Sunday School Christmas Program which was usually the Sunday before Christmas. It used to be on Christmas night but then someone had the brilliant idea to have it the Sunday before Christmas and I was very happy about that. This was when the girls wore the new Christmas dresses and shoes and the boys their new pants, shirts and ties and shoes. We were all decked out to recite the long poem we had learned. The church would be packed and the better you said it, the louder the applause you got. The whole family would we waiting to clap for you when you finished. It wasn’t unusual to hear somebody scream out “that’s my boy” or “looka my girl, she look too sweet”.
    Many families kept pigs which were slaughtered to feed the family. Some were also sold to friends, neighbors and co-workers. But before the pig was slaughtered it had to be engaged. Since most families had no electricity or refrigerator it was important that the whole pig was engaged (people had committed to buying the pork) before the slaughtering took place. The parents or an older child would go from house to house with a black lead (pencil) and an exercise book with which they would write down the orders – two pounds here, three pounds there, maybe a whole shoulder or leg for a better off family.
    Foreday morning on the day before Christmas Eve, the butcher would show up at the house with a ‘sticking-iron’, a large very sharp butcher’s knife and a razor with which to shave the hair off the pig. Then after the pig was cut into the desired portions, the children had to go through the village delivering the packages.
    After returning from delivering the pork, the girls went to work with their mother in the kitchen to do the baking. We would have pudding (pound cake), sweet bread, pone and salt bread. The great (fruit) cake was made a week prior to this and was soaked with port wine.

    Pudding (pound cake)                                               Sweet Bread                   
    

    Salt Bread
    Great (fruit) cake
    Then you had to boil the ham (which had been soaking for days to get out some of the salt). The rice had to be picked, the pigeon peas had to be picked and shelled.

    The stove on which we cooked…there was a sepa rate oven that used to sit on top of the stove for baking.

                         Case of sweet drinks (sodas)                                  Casuarina trees
    

    The boys had to polish the chairs and make trips to the shop to get the cases of sweet drinks (sodas) and cut de Christmas tree (a branch of a mile (casuarina)tree.

                                          The type of furniture we had
    

    I remember looking forward to Christmas morning 5:00AM service. The house was always full of the smell of the ham and coconut bread baking. Mummy and Daddy rushed us off to bed by 10pm, and they stayed up to finish all preparations. Before going to bed we were allowed to put up the tree in it’s designated spot. You could hear the banging of the hammer as curtains were being hung and smell the aroma of varnish or French Polish on the mahogany furniture, very often when you sat on the chairs on Christmas day you got stuck to them. They woke us up at 3 o’clock to get ready for church, not that we went to sleep at all because we were too excited to sleep. When we came out we would see the new curtains for the first time and the front house (living room) would be all decked out. This was one of the few times we were allowed to sit in the living room chairs.
    I used to love walking to church on Christmas morning and see the sun rise while taking in all the aromas coming from everybody’s house and the “Merry Christmas” greetings you got as you met your neighbors on their way to church. The women would be dressed in all white and the men black pants and ties with a white shirt. It felt like we were there at the birth of Jesus when the congregation started to sing “Christians Awake Salute The Happy Morn”.
    People back then could not afford to give each other gifts; however, they shared their food with each other. Those who were less fortunate in the neighborhood, or had lost a parent, were taken care of by the rest of the neighbors. The months leading up to Christmas the adults would get together to decide which family they would be helping. One family would outfit one child and another family would take care of another child, so when Christmas came they looked just as good as everybody else. Then on Christmas day, people would bring them food and baked stuff. They were very appreciative of whatever was done for them. That was a life lesson that remains with me to this day. I need to note that not all families in the village participated in this venture, however, there was a core group of neighbors who looked out for each other and my family happened to be one of them.
    Right after we got home from church our parents would send us with a basket of goodies all packaged out with names on each package. We would go door to door delivering the stuff that Mum baked the day before. At just about each house you would get a package to take back home. Very often you’ll leave home with a full basket and return with one.
    Now it was time to relax and enjoy the fruits of our labor. First a big breakfast consisting of ham and salt bread, sweet bread, pudding (cake) and all the goodies that Mum made. After this we would relax in the front house and listen to the greetings coming from relatives overseas which were recorded months ago in the various countries they now lived and broadcast on Christmas Day on Rediffusion.

    Rediffusion was our only source of radio communication.

    Those who lived in town or had transportation to get there would go to the annual promenade in Queen’s Park. There people were all dressed in their Sunday best and greeted each other while enjoying the concert being put on by The Royal Barbados Police Band.

    The Royal Barbados Police Band
    Dinner was a grand affair. The table would be laden with pork, rice and peas (with pig tail), chicken (that was killed the day before), macaroni and cheese (one of the few times we would get it), vegetables (from our garden), jug-jug, doved peas (pigeon peas fried up with onion, salt beef, onions and peppers), sweet potato, sorrel, ginger beer, mauby and our much awaited sweet drinks (soda). This was the only time we kids were allowed to drink a whole sweet drink by ourselves. Before dinner we said grace and each one of us had to give thanks to God for sending His Son. Then it was time to chow down. The rest of the day was spent relaxing and playing games.
    The next day was Christmas bank holiday and we either went visiting relative or they came visiting us. After that, Christmas celebrations were over and we started to look forward to next year.
    Those were the good old days the 1960’s and 1970’s.

    Submitted October 2011

    Like

  47. Caswell Franklyn December 8, 2015 at 1:51 PM #

    Hants

    Kellman is not making any joke; he is deadly serious. When he has pumped and desalinated all that water, he can deposit it in the Sahara and make one massive lake called “Lake Kellman”. I can see it now, a large settlement would spring up which would eventually become a town, then a city and after a few years, a country called “Kellman” with Dennis as its first president. Of course the airport would be in the north.

    Hants, so you see the idea has potential. By the way, I think that he was watching too many science fiction movies. I saw one where the aliens were taking all of our water.

    Sent from my iPad

    >

    Like

  48. Hants December 8, 2015 at 2:03 PM #

    New methodology for making Ham. Soak pork legs and shoulders in Sea water from River Bay.

    It will serve two purposes. Make good all Bajan ham and also counter the rising sea levels.

    New branding. RIVER BAY HAMS. Logo to follow soon.
    C.oncept by a Bajan brassbowl.

    Like

  49. Hants December 8, 2015 at 2:29 PM #

    @ Caswell,

    Bout de Hams, I just trying to be “humorous”. lol

    Like

  50. Hants December 8, 2015 at 5:03 PM #

    On another note:

    Why would a person accused of bullin a 15 year old boy be given bail.

    I thought a 15 year old is still a CHILD even in Barbados.

    Like

  51. Georgie Porgie December 8, 2015 at 6:00 PM #

    SO HE COULD BULL SOME MORE?

    Like

  52. Dompey December 8, 2015 at 6:16 PM #

    You asked why a man accused of bulling a 15 year old boy be given bail? Well, that question is quite easy: more than half of the Barbadian population are bullers, and the other half are bi- curious, and that includes the judge.

    Like

  53. ac December 8, 2015 at 6:20 PM #

    but balance yuh fuhget to talk bout them licks like peas the old folk cud throw in the children backside if they fughet to clean the kitchen after dinner celebrations

    Like

  54. Dompey December 8, 2015 at 6:26 PM #

    As a young kid grow up in Barbados, my quick thinking allowed me to escape all of the bullers advances, on my way to and from school. If my madda only knew when we had to going through in Barbados just to get an education. lol

    Like

  55. David December 8, 2015 at 6:42 PM #

    @Hants

    Is he a flight risk?

    Like

  56. balance December 8, 2015 at 7:04 PM #

    “On another note:

    Why would a person accused of bullin a 15 year old boy be given bail”

    Totally out of place Hants – same sex engagement if you please never mind a wee bit under age. Sure the boy wasn’t adopted.

    Like

  57. balance December 8, 2015 at 7:06 PM #

    “but balance yuh fuhget to talk bout them licks like peas the old folk cud throw in the children backside if they fughet to clean the kitchen after dinner celebrations”

    They in seem to do you no good.

    Like

  58. Hants December 8, 2015 at 7:46 PM #

    @ David who wrote ” Is he a flight risk? ”

    Like

  59. Hants December 8, 2015 at 7:55 PM #

    Ok David… I didn’t think it through and from a legal point of view.

    My judgement was clouded by the fact that I consider bullin a 15 years old to be a very serious crime.

    Like

  60. David December 8, 2015 at 7:57 PM #

    @Hants

    Yours is a good point, don’t know if that was considered though.

    Like

  61. Caswell Franklyn December 8, 2015 at 8:20 PM #

    Balance

    In Barbados at whatever age, you are underage when it comes to giving consent to that act. The act by itself is contrary to our laws.

    >

    Like

  62. Caswell Franklyn December 8, 2015 at 8:27 PM #

    In Barbados, bulling is like politicians stealing; everyone knows that it is contrary to law but it is widely practiced.

    Like

  63. Hants December 8, 2015 at 8:38 PM #

    @ Caswell,

    We have to protect our children.

    I am very liberal minded when it comes to consenting adults in the privacy of their home.

    Like

  64. Well Well & Consequences December 9, 2015 at 11:56 AM #

    Hants….at one time my daughter spent 6 years in Barbados, she got acquainted with the leaders’ histrionics and moments of madness…lol. it however, always translates to a new experience any time they get the urge to sound off.

    Like

  65. Well Well & Consequences December 9, 2015 at 12:01 PM #

    Is it not a shame that young boys have to continually dodge male predators who seek to rape them on the island. I remember young boys, who are now adults with sons, don’t want their sons to even visit Barbados, though now adults, they are still traumatized re their experiences with adult males, what’s wrong with these sick beasts.

    Like

  66. Artaxerxes December 9, 2015 at 4:04 PM #

    Dompey December 8, 2015 at 6:26 PM #

    “As a young kid grow up in Barbados, my quick thinking allowed me to escape all of the bullers advances, on my way to and from school.”

    How come you din escape from dum in de days when you did uses to be hiding bout at District A?

    Come out things. Lollllll

    Like

  67. Piece Uh De Rock Yeah Right December 9, 2015 at 5:53 PM #

    @ Artaxerxes

    I was asking the Blogmaster where domps was.

    I was tempted to axe my buddy Bust Tea when, all of a sudden, as soon as dis topic get mention, Domps appear.

    I will say no more…

    @ Hants

    I see that you getting real selfish wid you links to Fleur performances but dat is ok, keep you Red Plastic Bag links ef you please!!

    Like

  68. Hants December 9, 2015 at 7:29 PM #

    @Pieceuhderockyeahright,

    instant gratification.

    Liked by 1 person

  69. Hants December 9, 2015 at 7:41 PM #

    @Pieceuhderockyeahright,

    Visit the Diaspora Corner and see Chakka Khan still awesome at age 62.

    I spent the last 2 hours listening to some Bajan jazz by Rickey Aimey, Stephan Walcott Lovell and a few others.

    Barbados has a lot of talented muscians.

    Like

  70. Piece Uh De Rock Yeah Right December 10, 2015 at 12:57 AM #

    @ Hants

    Many thanks for the “instant gratification moment” which ironically is connected? to Jeff Cumberbatch’s topic on “Perspectives of Discipline” (and if you believe that well I have some land at Vaucluse with a renewable energy project totally clean energy…)

    I visit the corner and look for your postings all the time. Chaka Khan “Through the Fire” still carries the ole man back a few and is a fond remembrance, tied to my release from the third wife, Lilith #2 mostly, and confirms, for me, that “music is indeed the food of love” timeless, without respect for geography, and without the many other prejudices.

    Aimey can make and could always make a guitar talk from the time he started playing years ago. It is guys like these that are testimony to the fact that if there was a mature mechanism for a Bajan cultural “talent to market” strategy, there would have been thousand more Bajans who, over the years, would have been close to Rihanna, or doing extremely well financially as an export market for Bajans but, with Lil’ Caesar type mentalities and other short men from both the BLP and DLP, whose sole desire is “a box seat at a Rihanna Show”, our country is still stuck in a cultural (and economic) time tunnel.

    Fleur is incredible and I believe that, as her choreographic moves improve, with commensurate new, pointed musical material, she can potentially become the next Rihanna when the latter, like Beyonce, Madonna, Cher and Tina (does she have some legs) Turner and Aretha and all the predecessors, ultimately “fade”.

    Time does do that to all uh we right Hants!!

    Like

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