Jeff_column

The Jeff Cumberbatch Column – A Nation Under Law (iii)

BU shares the Jeff Cumberbatch Barbados Advocate column – Senior Lecturer in law at the University of the West Indies since 1983, a Columnist with the Barbados Advocate
Jeff Cumberbatch - New Chairman of the FTC

Jeff Cumberbatch – New Chairman of the FTC

A Nation Under Law (iii)
9/20/2015
By Jeff Cumberbatch

Initially, […]I did not intend that this essay on the rule of law should be extended to as many instalments as three, but the opening of the Law Year in a few regional jurisdictions; the release of a book by a sitting US Supreme Court justice; and some provocative comments from an English Law Lord together with some other related phenomena all seemingly conspired to provide enough relevant fodder for another part or two.

Too besides, readers of this column should have surmised by now that I am far more comfortable discussing the law and its operation in society than the admittedly more populist issue of partisan politics that is frequently reduced in these parts to the lowest common denominator of the personalities of the leading participants rather than being raised to the higher level of the quality of their contributions on significant issues. The situation is further exacerbated by the predictability of the contributions in this context of most of those who attempt public commentary and the tired reluctance of the very actors to debate the hard issues beyond mere assertion.

Because of the diverse nature of the topics covered by the writers and speakers last week, it may be preferable to discuss them separately although, given their provenance, their content offers some insight into the perspectives of those who are constitutionally charged with the practical administration of the rule of law in the various jurisdictions.

In Trinidad & Tobago, Archie CJ has firmly asserted the view that common sense should dictate that the carrying out of the sentence of death by hanging is not the solution to the spiralling murder rate in the twin-island republic. He appears to base this view on a combination of an apparent moratorium on such executions – the last occurred some sixteen years ago-; the number of those awaiting trial for murder– an estimated 514-; the dubiousness of the penalty of a deterrent and the sheer repugnance of executing even a fraction of the number awaiting trial even assuming that they were found guilty. In his words, “…do we really believe, assuming that a significant fraction of those persons are found guilty, that we will be able to hang several hundreds of people or that if we tried we could stomach it?”

Of course, the learned justice was mindful of his and the court’s limited jurisdiction in the matter, recognising expressly that this was a matter for the legislature and, by extension, the people of the country, but he decried too the judicial sense of futility of pronouncing a death sentence nowadays.

These sentiments are in sharp contrast to the view expressed recently by my learned friend, the retired Justice Leroy Inniss, who has advocated keeping the penalty on the statute books even as Barbados struggles to come to terms with its international undertakings, a partly self-imposed and partly judicially-enforced moratorium on execution of any imposed death penalty longer even than that in Trinidad & Tobago, and a hemispheric mood that for the most part regards the imposition of death penalty as an inhuman and a poorly-thought-out response to a grave societal problem. In these circumstances, it may be difficult to accommodate a view that the death penalty remaining a legal form of punishment will serve any useful purpose, no matter the eminence of its source.
Moreover, with all respect to the opinion of Mr Justice Inniss, it seems particularly unseemly and perhaps unnecessarily dangerous to add to the number of laws on our statute books for which there is little likelihood of enforcement. What may be more needful at this stage, if we should be so lucky, is a parliamentary debate on the issue; not one premised on the toeing of the unswerving party line as espoused by our current Westminster export-model system of governance but, rather, one based on the expression of the member’s conscience or, more desirably though less likely, that of his or her constituents collectively.

We have skirted this difficult question for far too long. And, after all, some things are more important than partisan political stances.

Across the globe, in New Zealand, the Lord Chief Justice of England & Wales, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, advanced a revolutionary view of the concept of judicial independence in a speech to a convocation of the Commonwealth Magistrates and Judges Association. Rather than counselling his fellow judicial officers to adopt the traditional stance of abstentionism in the political sphere, he urged them to take “proactive steps” to secure adequate funding for a justice system that is becoming “unaffordable to most people”.

In an article by Owen Bowcott in the Guardian newspaper last Thursday, Thomas LCJ is reported as enjoining, “…Judicial independence must not mean judicial isolation…the judiciary must explain the centrality of justice and why it matters. That task cannot be left to others. Transparency and openness are crucial to instilling public confidence in the judicial system…”

The Lord Chief Justice’s comments were made in the context, as already noted, of funding for the justice system, a point likewise referred to in the speech of Archie CJ at the opening of the Law Year in Trinidad & Tobago. There, Archie CJ bewailed “the inability to obtain the necessary financial resources to implement critical infrastructure projects, although, unsurprisingly, he did not go as far as Thomas LCJ did in advocating a reformation of the concept of judicial independence so as directly to engage the political directorate.

Given our apparent judicial tradition of being perceived as being politically detached and, at most times, the existence of a healthy mutual respect for each other’s constitutional authority, it is unlikely that Lord Thomas’s advice will resonate in this region anytime soon. Yet few will want to deny that the justice system has not profited from the customary disengagement from the public sphere. This has consequently led to a climate of mistrust and suspicion; a circumstance that a notion so important as the dispensation of justice could very well do without.

Those days when a judge could state with some degree of pride that he or she never reads the newspapers are arguably, and happily, now of the past. And a local tradition that appears to abhor the idea of any judicial officer being invited to speak publicly on matters of law serves only to enforce a regime of mystery rather than the more desirable one of openness in the justice system.

To be continued…

Tags: , ,

74 Comments on “The Jeff Cumberbatch Column – A Nation Under Law (iii)”

  1. Caswell Franklyn September 19, 2015 at 11:41 PM #

    Many people argue that the death penalty is not a deterrent, and to counter that I respond by saying that it certainly deters the executed person from ever murdering again.

    It is first and foremost a punishment which is extreme that cannot be reversed in the event of error. That is my greatest fear in applying the death penalty. If there is absolute certainty that the crime was done with malice afore thought, my view is that the murderer went about his business with the knowledge that he could face the death penalty if caught. In those circumstances I see no reason why the murderer should not suffer the consequences of his actions.

    Like

  2. pieceuhderockyeahright September 20, 2015 at 4:21 AM #

    As author of this piece it is noticeable that you again with clinical precision posit the varied point yet, almost like a man cognizant of voicing an opinion on a seminal matter of jurisprudence because one day he WILL BE a judge or Chief Justice, reserves such definitive stance lest it be attributed to being biased.

    That being said let me add my two cents worth to that 514 of whom you spoke.

    Firstly, the seeming inhumanity of taking as many of those 514 lives as may be categorized as persons acting through malice aforethought elicits in me the same response as Mr Franklyn s, not only because of his equitable reward concept but more so from the psychological impact I believe the “collective punishment” arising from a jury of ones peers, has on those remaining.

    Death, rather the administration of death as a calculated reward to murderers encounters many a response from those who administered such, personally or vicariously, or so I am told.

    The responses of those who dealt it to another/others with such actions that others, post deliberating, conclude that death is to be their reward, varies from downright indifference, callousness, bravado to tears.

    While it may seem inhumane to march 514 persons to their predetermined? Death, is not all death, this necessary end, predetermined?, end I unlike amnesty international I think that we have little choice in this matter lest, like the casual act of putting on a pair of Timberlands, these miscreants can feel so emboldened by our abdication of responsibility to “kill a fella because you or I step pun said Timberlands”

    Terminating the life of a citizen who calculated the demise of another for gain, reprisal or, as in recent times, a lark or as a “blooding” is what we must do else we become the scared frightened citizenry that we, including the author?, have now become.

    We must take “I gone kill you and go and sit down at dodds awaiting Her Majesty’s Pleasure or pardon” from their lips

    Like

  3. David September 20, 2015 at 4:32 AM #

    Another good word Provenance – http://www.merriam-webster.com/audio.php?file=proven01&word=provenance&text=#

    Like

  4. Dompey September 20, 2015 at 5:51 AM #

    @Piece

    Piece writes: ” Many people argue that the death penalty is not a deterrent, and to counter that I respond by saying that it certainly deters the executed person from ever murdering again.”

    That is the most idiotic statement I have heard from you thus far because the objective of the state sponsored execution is not designed to send a message of deterrent, but rather to ensure that the victim and the victim’s family gets the kind of justice that their are seeking.

    Now with that being said let us turn our attention to the person who is schedule for exercution by the state, to determine without a shadow of a doubt that he or she has had a fair trial. And that the evidence presented by the state was fair, and forthcoming and that the state did not withheld any evidence which would have exonerated the condemned person.

    And that the appeal process is such that the condemned person is given ample time for appeal before execution in case newly found evidence should emerge in his or her favour.

    Like

  5. Dompey September 20, 2015 at 6:09 AM #

    Piece, just let me inform your understanding for just one moment sir: the entire criminal -code was originally designed to send a message of deterrent, and not just a sentence of murder.
    The Greek Emperor Justin 1 instituted a lot of the criminal-code predicated upon the Biblical principle of an eye for and eye and tooth for a tooth my friend.

    Like

  6. pieceuhderockyeahright September 20, 2015 at 6:32 AM #

    Donkey,

    Not only are you dyslexic but you attribute verbatim statements of Mr Franklyn to me and while I concur with the statement, their authorship is not mine.

    You must apologies to the author clown lest it be confirmed to all and sundry that thou cans’t not read…

    Like

  7. Dompey September 20, 2015 at 7:33 AM #

    Piece

    Albert Einstein was dyslexic and yet he has been regarded by the academic world as the greatest thinker in human history to date, so what’s your point?

    Here is my point Piece: dyslexia has no real bearing on one’s intellectual ability; the very governor of my state is dyslexic,but yet he graduated magna cum laude in university.

    Man Listen: go back to your bed and continue playing with your blowing doll with the big titts because it seems as though you’re off your rocker this morning.

    You Made an idiotic statement and when attention is drawn to it, you engaged in hyperbolic like little boy who got caught with his hands in the cookie jar. Man grow up and act your age and not your IQ brother.

    Like

  8. lawson September 20, 2015 at 7:39 AM #

    the problem with the death penalty is the amount of time it has now taken to carry it out. If it is justice for the family ….a lot of them will pass away before the sentence is carried out…if it is a deterrent….for who? the case will we be long forgotten or dragged out for years by the legal buzzards . For the death penalty to satisfy both it must be swift and immediate.

    Like

  9. Dompey September 20, 2015 at 8:13 AM #

    Lawson

    You have made some very valid points, but the time allotted to those on deathrow is to made way for the appeals process because I would rather that the family members of the victim pass away before state rushes hasily and put to death one innocent person.

    Like

  10. Bush Tea September 20, 2015 at 8:16 AM #

    Shiiote man David…!!!

    You telling Bushie that you can’t ban these jackasses Dompey and AC from at LEAST one intelligent topic each week…?

    Like

  11. de Ingrunt Word September 20, 2015 at 8:19 AM #

    And Lawson therein lies the problem as there will never again be ‘swift and immediate’ execution of a death penalty judgement in any free world democracy.

    The reasons for that are of course grounded in the perversion of the legal system which creates the very real instances of innocent people being convicted of these capital offenses.

    Like

  12. David September 20, 2015 at 8:21 AM #

    @Bushie

    People have a right to post in a forum that hold true to the tenet of freedom of expression. Agree some of the comments make reading a tedious exercise. Thank god for the scroll and delete features.

    Like

  13. David September 20, 2015 at 8:24 AM #

    Jeff touched on the issue of time to sentence in his piece. A big part of the problem is a moribund justice system and a lack of commitment by governments to enforce the death penalty.

    Like

  14. Dompey September 20, 2015 at 8:45 AM #

    Lawson

    Examine for example: the case there in Barbados which involved the known criminal Peter Bradshaw who was convicted of the killing of a white plantation ower back in 1986-87, and who sat on deathrow for 19 years. But he was subsequently pardoned by the Queen of England because it was later discovered that there had been serious misconduct on the part of the members of the CID, during their initial investigation of Bradshaw’s case.

    David and Piece, who is this Peter Bradshaw?… wait … Dompey lives in America and how would he have gotten to read about the circumstances surrounding this case …. like the name Dodd I had referenced earlier… lol

    Like

  15. Bush Tea September 20, 2015 at 8:54 AM #

    dee Word has hit the nail on the head.

    It would be VERY difficult for crooks and criminals in the political/justice system to enforce justice on others when they KNOW that they are operating a flawed, perverse system.

    Picture someone like the Speaker of the house having to play a role in locking up a fellow from Orange Hill for stealing a man’s breadfruit…
    …or the PM playing a role in someone being sentenced for breech of contract.
    ..or the DPP having to prosecute someone for beating a tenant who failed to pay up their rent…

    Here is where Jeff is wrong in his snide remark about politics being “frequently reduced in these parts to the lowest common denominator of the personalities of the leading participants ” …presumably ‘there parts’ include here on BU…. lol (and includes Bushie.. )

    Effective good governance BEGINS with high morals and good character at the LEADERSHIP level. The discussion about personalities is therefore RIGHTLY a matter of public concern. So that even if the Speaker should now come with some quality “contribution on significant issues” …his effectiveness has forever been tarnished by the fact that he is a known thief who had to be instructed by the court to return stolen property.

    One CANNOT escape the factor of good CHARACTER.

    Ultimately, we CANNOT apply the death penalty because too many in authority CANNOT stand on the moral high ground needed to do so with a clear conscience. This is so even though the majority of citizens are supportive and call for capital punishment to be reinstated.

    Liked by 1 person

  16. Hants September 20, 2015 at 8:54 AM #

    @ Bushie,

    David is following the fishcake formula of some vendors. little bits of fish,little bit hot pepper and nuff flower and baking powder.

    Like

  17. Bush Tea September 20, 2015 at 9:03 AM #

    LOL @ Hants
    No problem with David’s variety fish cakes….
    Bushie just asking him to cover the damn bowl to keep out the flies when dey done…🙂

    Like

  18. Dompey September 20, 2015 at 9:13 AM #

    Bush Tea

    Where is your contribution to the topic before deliberation Bush Tea?

    All I have gotten from you thus for is a failing attempt to induce the blogmaster to undermine the very democratic principles he proposed to uphold.

    And furthemore, you ought not to concerned yourself with AC and Dompey, you focus more on the regurgitated information you spew, parrot and peddle here on BU daily.

    Now, can we at least get an original comment from you Bush Tea, to ascertain your inner feeling regarding this very important issue?

    Like

  19. Hants September 20, 2015 at 9:16 AM #

    @Bushie,

    David forget to cover the bowl again. lol

    Liked by 1 person

  20. de Ingrut Word September 20, 2015 at 10:28 AM #

    David is it as clear-cut as “….a moribund justice system and a lack of commitment by governments to enforce the death penalty.”

    We have the statistics from Texas which embraces its label as the death penalty capital in the US with more executions in the last decade than most states combined. In 2005 they closed the chapter on 19 lives or 46% of those who were executed that year…all others executed that year approx. 41.

    Despite their very robust use of the ultimate penalty Texas does not have any greater reduction in capital offenses than other states. Since 2006: 24,26,18, 24,17,13,15,16, 10. That’s 182 executions including stats from 2005.

    Clearly the good folks in Texas do not have a moribund judicial system or do they lack commitment on the matter of capital punishment, yet we can’t point to a more pristine, uplifting and overarching way of life as compared to other states or countries.

    I appreciate Bushie’s point and those of many other Bajan who believe the death penalty is an excellent ‘eye for an eye’ response but based on all that we know of the the judicial imbalances, police infelicities and the social/familial issues of many of those who are placed in the dock it’s extremely difficult to validate the death penalty.

    It is no panacea, but of course the oft repeated life imprisonment without any option to ever see freedom is the best balance. Saves the family the continued pain and grief of endless attendance at a trial and also discontinues the shameful money-making process of appeal after appeal.

    Oh and btw, Texas has 271 folks currently on death row. An interesting juxtaposition to that 514 men (and women I presume) who Jeff mentioned are awaiting trial for murder in T&T.

    I have no idea the success rate of the T&T prosecutors but if we assume some bogus number of 52% then we get 271. Even the great executing state of Texas took 10 years to get to 182.

    What likelihood is there that even if there was some intent that such a number can be achieved in this region.

    So to Jeff’s broader point, the death penalty is now an impractical, unsustainable and for all meaningful purposes notn-executable act!

    Like

  21. David September 20, 2015 at 10:42 AM #

    @Dee Word

    Are you able to shed light why you and others gravitate to comparisons between the US and Barbados? The dynamics driving the two are on extreme ends of the spectrum

    Liked by 1 person

  22. Bush Tea September 20, 2015 at 11:18 AM #

    Anyone who thinks that the intent of the death penalty is to ‘deter’ others from committing murder, and that this should therefore determine whether or not it is applied ..probably thinks that marriage should be abolished in light of the many divorces….. and that bulling should be legitimised because Peter says so…

    The ‘intent’ of the death penalty on murderers is SOLELY to establish and to reinforce the abject ABHORRENCE that a society should be placing on the act of murder. It established the PRINCIPLE that this is NOT acceptable, and that society will apply the ultimate sanction to demonstrate that fact.
    Just because enough jackasses may choose to violate this FUNDAMENTAL societal rule is no justification in abandoning the rule and instituting in it’s place one that essentially says ‘Since so many people are choosing to kill/ divorce /bull /wick /steal / cheat / take bribes, this society will go easy on such violators because the society has no ‘rights’ to be so harsh as to punish them with execution/ marriage/ straight sex/ honesty or having to decline bribes.”

    What level of idiocy does it require in order to do such damage to a society….?
    Brass Bowlery…!!

    The USA (and Texas in particular), is so warped a damn place that common sense and practicality have long since passed them by…
    shiite man … this is the country where sickos have the ‘ constitutional RIGHT’ to own military weapons and to massacre whole classes of school children… out of commitment to owning guns…

    Bushie seems to note that the USA’s slide into brass bowlery appears to have coincided with Dompey’s migration from Barbados….
    …while ours seem to align with David allowing him back via BU as a shiite-talking Lexicon….

    Liked by 1 person

  23. Hants September 20, 2015 at 11:26 AM #

    @ David,

    Do you have statistics for wrongful convictions ( re murder ) in Barbados?

    Like

  24. Hants September 20, 2015 at 11:37 AM #

    Life imprisonment without parole is actually a lifelong holiday.

    The state houses,feeds and clothes you.

    Like

  25. Bush Tea September 20, 2015 at 11:43 AM #

    @ Hants
    The state houses,feeds and clothes you.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    State shiite!!
    you mean the very VICTIMS of your crime through their taxes…
    …talk bout ‘inverted logic’.. (AKA brass bowlery…🙂 )

    Like

  26. Dompey September 20, 2015 at 12:20 PM #

    Bush Tea examine the four principles of Criminal Justice and tells us if in any of them do your ascertain or suspect the concept of Deterrent?

    1) Prevention
    2) Apprehension
    3) Incarceration
    4) Rehabilitation

    And add to that man four greatest fears:

    1) Death
    2) Disease
    3) Doubt
    4) Divorce

    Like

  27. de Ingrut Word September 20, 2015 at 12:56 PM #

    David, your comment re US v Barbados really deserves an extensive treatise because on this issue you are very misguided in your perspectives that “…between the US and Barbados? The dynamics driving the two are on extreme ends of the spectrum”. My short answer below will not give you the meat to gnaw on properly but suffice it for today.

    In simply terms David you and others must stop looking at the US as some large monolith of 300+ million people and understand clearly it’s basically 50 different countries comprised of many small communities just like Barbados. The people operate with the same prejudices and passion in those small towns.

    The old dictum that all politics is local applies as strongly for a Senator from NY as it does for one from Texas and obviously even more so for a congressman from a Brooklyn district or for one representing citizens in Alameda County, Texas in the SAME way as for the MP for St. Michael North East or Ch. Ch South.

    Let’s go back to the stats on executions in Texas. It is noted that 60% of all those convictions emanate from ONE or TWO counties mainly.

    There certainly is divergence in this debate between the two locales on the racial construct of those indicted for capital offenses but beyond that the same issues of poverty, social issues, mental deficiencies and so on drive the concerns of the death penalty.

    Did we not have a brief debate regarding the recent Supreme Court 5-4 ruling on the Marriage Act. That is a particularly local issue. Some counties- towns- states are violently opposed; a majority of other states are not. But yet the populace overall are basically split as the Judges of the Supreme Court were.

    That is why sir even in the supposed most racially tolerant northern states like NY you have people and towns that are the most racist and abhorrently divisive as any county in the red-neck south.

    So please don’t get carried away with the size of the US David. Extrapolate Barbabdos to 300+ million and the surveys and popular issues would shock you on their SAMENESS.

    As I said your simple statement should be answered in a doctoral thesis length piece; I have barely skimmed a bit off the top foam.

    Like

  28. David September 20, 2015 at 1:02 PM #

    @Dee Word

    Have you trivialized the comparison?

    Why not factor gun control and the right to bear arms. Add to it a society that is highly litigious. Then rewrite your last comment. Note these two examples are global in influence.

    Like

  29. lawson September 20, 2015 at 2:58 PM #

    with dna and more close scrutiny of each case.. that is the norm today, wrongful death convictions are probably non existent and if there is any doubt at all… a sentence would be in order other than the supreme one, however once a jury has passed sentence then you should be taken out and killed in the same manner you committed your crime . a bullet for bullet, a blade for blade and in AC;s case bull shit rammed down her throat like she has been killing all of us with.

    Like

  30. de Ingrut Word September 20, 2015 at 3:15 PM #

    How so was it trivialized, Mr Blogmaster? As I clearly noted it’s not a subject that can be properly dealt with in a few brief sentences because it is a comprehensive social makeup that needs to be examined.

    You have raised two key areas of difference but frankly David let’s strip away the hyperbole and go to the nitty-gritty.

    GUN CONTROL: The 2nd Amendment of the US Constitution which deals with ‘gun control’ is really a red-herring in a capital case debate. Certainly many states enact strong punishments when guns are used in criminal activity resulting in a death but the gun itself is not the reason a premeditated capital crime is done.

    Furthermore in states like Texas where guns are readily available and widely owned the criminal is as likely to receive a shot as he is to give one. Gun ownership can reduce personal crime!

    And for that very reason, I would posit to you that in Barbados the criminals with THEIR complete and unfettered access to guns have even more incentive to commit a gun crime than the criminals in Texas who have complete access to purchase a gun.

    I say that with conviction because currently Texas rates LOWER than NY in gun related criminal deaths. NY has very strict gun ownership, firearm carry and gun sale laws.

    David, the MAJORITY (90% in one article) of violent crimes do not in any way include a gun in US.

    In Barbados I am sure that the popular view is opposite that fact because of the extensive coverage of the drive-by shootings and other such incidents.

    I would ask you: What % is our gun crime stats of our violent crimes? I posit that it’s ‘high’ for a country where gun ownership is strictly controlled!!!!!

    HIGHLY LITIGIOUS: The issue of being litigious is absolutely irrelevant, David. We are talking about capital crimes which are prosecuted by the state…this has nothing to do with a happy-go-try-my-luck civil litigation.

    There is much to this issue David but the bottom line remains the same as Jeff said: “… it may be difficult to accommodate a view that the death penalty remaining a legal form of punishment will serve any useful purpose, no matter the eminence of its source.”

    The death penalty is being de facto removed as a viable punishment whether we want to accept it or not and moreover the MAIN issues in Barbados on this subject differ marginally from those in the US.

    Like

  31. Bush Tea September 20, 2015 at 3:21 PM #

    LOL @ Lawson
    Bushie seconds that legal opinion on AC’s deserved fate….
    …although Domkey shit would do just as well… LOL ha ha ha

    Like

  32. Piece Uh De Rock Yeah Right September 20, 2015 at 4:41 PM #

    @ De Ingrunt Word

    I fear that you have lost sight of the difference between the two societies with that great big paint brush of Amurica, emboldened by its well known song “We are the World”, you now seek to paint the Caribbean

    When your favourite Prime Minister David Thompson died (we all know what your sentiments of the Dead King are) for the 3 weeks that the airwaves were forced? to play solemn funeral dirges and during that time the Police reported that their were NO KILLINGS and fewer domestic disturbances

    The same issue obtained in Trinidad with the hanging of the Gang of Nine whose remembrance of 1999 goes thusly “As the sun rose on Friday behind the Northern Ridge near here, and the 6 a.m. bell pealed at nearby St. Mary’s College, the trap door snapped open beneath Dole Chadee’s feet in the State Prison gallows room. Trinidad’s most notorious murderer, drug lord and gang leader had been hanged. Joey Ramiah was the next to die. And then, at 8:44 a.m., it was Ramkalawan Singh’s turn…”

    You and others DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE EFFECT OF thE SPECTRE OF VIOLENT DEATH ON THESE “BAD BOYS” when the imminent trapdoor is shown to them.

    When they drop, eyes bulge, neck snaps, most of the time, depending on if the hangman calculated their weight right and they involuntarily shite their clothing.

    What rights do you think that they are entitled to when they take our sons and daughters lives?

    Wunna does talk causing wunna got mouths doah…steupseeee

    Like

  33. ac September 20, 2015 at 5:54 PM #

    @ Lawson and bush sh.it Threats i take very seriously and i would have no problem after both of you have been found guilty of committing a heinous crime against my personnel having the dubious assignment of pulling the hangsman noose tied around your necks, belive me no bull shit,

    Like

  34. de Ingrut Word September 20, 2015 at 6:25 PM #

    Pieces, it is difficult, almost well nigh impossible, to placate your valid ‘eye for an eye’ of the Dole Chadee type with the myriad concerns surrounding the ‘death penalty’ issue. The biblical call for retribution in the case you cited or for many other similar heinous acts is well made but unfortunately cannot be as simply enacted as you would desire.

    Suffice to say I have no fundamental problem with bad actors being suitably punished and executed if necessary.

    Pieces I respect your discourse and I think we go at each other in a proper manner so please tell me these two things:

    How do you square the strong sentiment of simple retribution with your present day Christian soul of repentance and forgiveness?—rhetorical, no need to reply on that.
    And more fundamental. If Chadee and his cohorts had such an everlasting and profound effect on the spectre of violent criminal deaths then why are there so many muuders still in T&T? Give me SOLID feedback on that fah sure! Nah “talk causing yah got mouth doah”. Solid commentary. (LOL)

    I am not disputing that the death penalty may be a just and valid sentence. But I do agree that it’s well nigh impossible to properly effect that punishment in modern society.

    Therefore its counter productive and nonsensical to proclaim this action as a solution rather than seek more practical options.That sir is the alpha and omega of this death penalty debate.

    Why endure the cost and the chase around the mulberry bush to an execution? To salve whose conscience, sir? What does it achieve?

    Society obviously already missed the boat on the criminal’s possible actions and botched any intervention so now we go all out to salve our sorry souls and seek this ‘retribution’.

    Sounds like a good plan right Pieces!

    Don’t mistake a practical approach for a bleeding heart or soft approach on criminals. We probably agree on this more than you realize.

    But the death penalty just has not worked and today it has become a legal marathon that benefits lawyers, psychologists, criminologist etc. No where in the process do victims’ families or those who really need the support benefit.

    Why continue this charade?

    Like

  35. Piece Uh De Rock Yeah Right September 20, 2015 at 7:07 PM #

    @ DIW

    I shall answer both your questions even if one is rhetorical

    1) How do you square the strong sentiment of simple retribution with your present day Christian soul of repentance and forgiveness?—rhetorical, no need to reply on that.

    I AM NOT JESUS THE CHRIST & NEITHER ARE YOU

    If you awaken one night from a peaceful rest to the sounds of a man or men or persons unknown breaking into or having broken into your house armed with machetes will you rush for the Sword of the Work of our Lord to slay these interlopers? or will will you, in the event that the only way out of the circumstances that you and your family find themselves seek to slaughter these brethren whom it would appear have misconstrued what the Good Book meant when Cain asked “Am I my Brother’s keeper?”

    2) With regard to your second question per Chadee and his cohorts, the reason that his “neck popping” DID NOT HAVE “such an everlasting and profound effect on the spectre of violent criminal deaths” is because T&T stopped the hanging!!

    THAT IS why there still are “so many muuders in T&T”!!

    I put this to you, when the police in New York were terrorizing the various immigrants in Jamaica in the 70/89’s they did not interfere with the Jamaican possies, neither did the Skin Heads because these persons STOOD UP TO THE ONSLAUGHT OF “THE ENEMY”.

    The Revelation of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus the Christ shall not be one effected with a “Father Forgive them for they know not what they do” banner but one of destruction to the foul enemy and lord of the air.

    I, in espousing this pop dem neck policy, am just practicing to be in that army of eradication of the enemy early since it is my feeling that these miscreants, and Chadee-like denizens, these Lord Evils are just a few of the same spawn to be eradicated.

    I base my “solid commentary” of the ubiquitous fact that after 9 o’clock pun a night, so called law biding citizens like we, is now prisoners in our homes while the “real real prisoners and murderers that we in our mamby=pamby-attitudes are forever trying to rehabilitate and reintegrate through similar “amnesty” and “christian charity policies, are freely walking the streets from 9 to 6 while we cower in our respective homes, until daylight brek.

    Like

  36. Piece Uh De Rock Yeah Right September 20, 2015 at 7:09 PM #

    ** Sword of the Word of our Lord” not “Sword of the Work…”

    Like

  37. de Ingrut Word September 20, 2015 at 7:37 PM #

    Come on Pieces, really now. A man or men brek in de house wid serious murderous intent and yah expect me to reach for the Bible. Don’t meh laughing sport.

    But suppose I don’t get de cricket bat fast enough and they bring death and destruction to my family and I unfortunately live to see them in court. Do you think that if they necks pop or not that I care. Will I feel my wife’s soft touch again or see my lovely, intelligent yet hard-ears yuths.

    My desire would be to destroy dem before they do any harm or immediately after in that moment of pure unadulterated vengeance…after dat WTF does it matter. Really Pieces do you think I care after that.

    Surely I want them never to see the light of day again because if they do den surely Barbados gine get real suffocating for me and I will then have to fully embrace the word of God in order to continue life peaceably,

    I don’t want nah stupid multiple appeals after a death sentence. Just one and done with 50 years to life. No early release. But lei’s not tempt fate, ok.

    Enough of this,

    We can agree I suspect that death is final and death at the hands of the state is fraught with a finality of intractable problems.

    Liked by 1 person

  38. Dompey September 20, 2015 at 7:50 PM #

    Piece

    You could cower in your home if that pleases you sir, but for me, with some good fire-power and good eye-sight, let them bring it I will be waiting brother. The law allows every man as well as woman the right to defend his or her self, as long as the force equals the threat.

    Like

  39. Bush Tea September 20, 2015 at 7:51 PM #

    @ Piece
    “Wunna does talk causing wunna got mouths doah…’

    Good call Piece.

    Like

  40. Dompey September 20, 2015 at 8:00 PM #

    Bush Tea

    Remember I am a town man who walked through Bush Hall dangerous areas at one point, and never once feared for my life, so I am talking reality fella.

    Like

  41. Piece Uh De Rock Yeah Right September 20, 2015 at 8:41 PM #

    @ DIW

    I am feeling you, I am just more disposed to doling out “5 minutes on the gallows trap door” than “two 50 year sentences to run concurrently” to these scum of the earth notwithstanding the travesty that is called justice.

    @ Bush Tea

    Dis “idle chatter” from dem peeples dem is your fault though.

    I you had stand up in the mouth of Her Majesty’s prison in Station Hill and use either your wacker of the Bull Pissel once in de back of the Donkey while he was roaming Station Hill or Bush Hill pun a night late, all like now his “reality” would got him running cross de water between heah and Murica.

    Oh lawsie …

    Between de seriousness you does need a little comedy sometimes

    All dis comic relief dun doah causing de madam coming home ** and I gine has tuh leff out de cuntputer to show how much I miss she (and all de house chores and de feed my sheeps and de difrunt tings dat she gots me doing bout ** church)

    So I ent going be able to say nuffin to SSS fuh a little while but I putting out a warning tuh Lawson and tuh certain udder peeples (smh) tuh lef she alone..

    Wait whu happen wid Sonna? I hope dat she ent sick nor nuffing doah, given de comments by dat 8.00 p.m. feller I cud see why

    Like

  42. Hants September 20, 2015 at 9:14 PM #

    @ Piece Uh De Rock Yeah Right ,

    Before de madam come home yuh should enjoy de las artistic performance video I posted in de Diaspora Corner.

    Back in de day we used to say Black is beautiful.

    Like

  43. Bush Tea September 20, 2015 at 10:16 PM #

    @ Piece
    “.. you had stand up in the mouth of Her Majesty’s prison in Station Hill and use either your wacker of the Bull Pissel once in de back of the Donkey…”
    ++++++++++
    That would have made no difference….
    A certain teacher at St Leonards tried that for YEARS…

    It is a waste of time beating an ass …or AC***.

    @ Dompey
    “…man who walked through Bush Hall dangerous areas at one point, and never once feared for my life”
    ++++++++++++
    Your donkey ‘feared’ during that recent fire though… The neighbour who saved it said you were scared stiff… ha ha ha..

    Liked by 1 person

  44. pieceuhderockyeahright September 20, 2015 at 10:16 PM #

    You see whu I mean Blogmaster!!

    Jes so, a man gine tuh he bed and whaplax dis pulchritudinous specimen uh Nubian princess get sen tuh de ole man

    Deer gots tuh be limits Blogmaster, limits

    Not content tuh send me Krave en dat ting in T&T looka whu get deliver tuh my cyberspace door

    Hangs I gine gots to bypass you blogs like how I does do wid asinus and company

    I does bypass de two uh dem causing me mental healf cyan tek um but I gine gots tuh bypass Hants causing me physical healf cyan tek dese impacts tuh de eyesight en de cerebellum and udder unspeakable anotomical part dat de ole man does lie bout fun ovah a half century en one score years

    I cyan tek it nah mo’

    Like

  45. ac September 20, 2015 at 10:23 PM #

    Pop a man/woman neck like a chicken and we “supposed ” to be morally better than the murderer , then one should ask self where does one morals begin and when and where do they end,

    Like

  46. balance September 21, 2015 at 4:27 AM #

    I do not know how we allowed ourselves to get caught up in the irrelevant argument of whether the ‘death penalty’ is a deterrent or not. There is no evidence to support this notion; it was intended to be a punishment. My difficulty is carrying it out based on flimsy evidence. It should only be carried out based on evidence beyond a shadow of doubt.

    Like

  47. Zoe September 21, 2015 at 7:13 AM #

    Ecclesiastes 8:11 ►

    New International Version

    “When the sentence for a crime is not quickly carried out, people’s hearts are filled with schemes to do wrong.”

    Like

  48. ac September 21, 2015 at 7:47 AM #

    Really is that one of the teachings of Jesus .

    Like

  49. St George's Dragon September 21, 2015 at 8:24 AM #

    Killing people is wrong whether it is called murder or state execution.

    Like

  50. lawson September 21, 2015 at 8:36 AM #

    Pop a head like a chicken……..I don’t want to be morally better than the murderer, I want to be just as self serving as the murderer, by disposing of them my community will be more secure have less expenditure and bring satisfaction to most of the family of the person killed except for the holy rollers who think that they are going to a greater good by giving this killer a free pass.

    Like

  51. ac September 21, 2015 at 9:58 AM #

    Well secured!is that so then explain the high levels of crime even with state sanctioned executions

    Like

  52. lawson September 21, 2015 at 12:38 PM #

    I don’t know how I can argue with you…I think it says in the bible the weak..freak.. or geek will inherit the earth, …since you have the trifecta going you are probably going to get it all or at least be queen or something. So in some bizzaro way maybe you are right we shouldn’t off the criminals we should just revel in the thought they will be drones for the queen bee

    Like

  53. Bush Tea September 21, 2015 at 2:11 PM #

    LOL @ lawson
    There in no point in serious argument with an idiot…
    …put another way …. don’t waste time trying to beat sense into AC***.

    @ Zoe
    Don’t the bible also say that there is a way that SEEMS right to brass bowls, but that the end thereof is the way of death….? Don’t you like how we seem INCAPABLE of seeing the correlation between the shiite we do and the results that we are getting…?

    You need to grasp the concept of people being so blind that they CANNOT see…and stop getting so uptight…
    BTW … how is GP today? lol..

    Hard ears we won’t hear, mind AC ..and we will feel…🙂

    Like

  54. Bush Tea September 21, 2015 at 2:33 PM #

    @ Dragon
    Killing people is wrong whether it is called murder or state execution
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Logic that would impress any four-year-old …and AC.

    Unfortunately, interpersonal relationships and social dynamics are much more complex issues than can be summarised with such childish, emotional thinking. (this is probably the reason that the Bible tends to promote MEN -(with REAL balls) for leadership positions.

    The harsh (grown-up) reality of life is that achieving good results within a human society REQUIRES leaders to make difficult and challenging decisions. This is why we have court systems, police forces, armies, health services, sanitation services etc.

    SHIT HAPPENS.
    …and unless someone is capable of cleaning up the mess, ..we all will catch some shiite diseases…. like elephantiasis, Poliomyelitis, arthritis and the one diabetes LOL …according to Mitchigan & Smiley

    So if it hurts your emotions that ‘the state’ may be called on to take a life then you may need to withdraw to the bedroom and do some knitting …and let a REAL man step forward and deal with the centipede…

    Put another way…. If you can’t handle the HEAT of leadership, then stay to hell out of the leadership kitchen …..and carry long Fumble with yuh….

    Liked by 1 person

  55. ac September 21, 2015 at 4:23 PM #

    Jerk u did not answer the question

    Like

  56. ac September 21, 2015 at 6:35 PM #

    Btw taking pot shots is not the answers ,There is a lot of research available where you can find the answer . as to why the death penalty is only a panacea for the social ills of this world, the problems of high crime coupled with murder would never go away until the basic foundation one built on moral grounds is restored to the society and the family unit,

    Like

  57. St George's Dragon September 22, 2015 at 5:22 PM #

    “Logic that would impress any four-year-old …and AC.”
    It’s called a moral position. Everyone should have one.

    Like

  58. ac September 24, 2015 at 4:35 PM #

    i have resolved myself into believing that barbados would always remain seated comfortable on the back burner no matter hot it gets, therefore it makes no sense in debating those things that are far removed from their conscious

    Like

  59. ac September 24, 2015 at 5:02 PM #

    Should the death penalty be banned as a form of punishment?

    http://www.balancedpolitics.org/death_penalty.htm#yes

    maybe after a good read some big headed brass bowls would “get it”

    Like

  60. Dompey September 24, 2015 at 6:10 PM #

    Bush Tea

    Those who object against death- penalty, reminded me the of the man who wanted so badly to be the Hangman, until his very son was sentenced to be hung.

    Bush Tea

    Writes: killing people is wrong whether it is called murder or state execution.

    But he has yet to give us a valid reason as to why state sponsored execution is wrong?

    1) Is it because the Bible says thou shall not kill?
    2) Is it because the majority believes the it is morally wrong to do?
    3) Is it because your grandparents said the it is too inhumane?
    4) Is it because a life for life does little to elicit an effective deterrent?

    Listen! I have already established earlier that there is a high wall between church and state, and that secular government doesn’t abide by Ecciesiastical law.

    Nevertheles, I am fully convinced that if my daughter and your granddaughter were to be kidnapped tortured, violated in the worse possible way, and the murdered by a known sex-offender, that we would be the first to call for the death penalty, if we don’t take care of the job ourselves.

    And in conclusion: it is not about our religious convictions; it is not about our moral convictions; it is not about the way in which the majority feels about it.
    It is about Justice for the deceased who is unable to communicate the manner in which his or her life has been taken from this human existence. And justice in my estimation, and I am quite sure in the estimation of many, equal a life for a life, no matter what the books of theology and philosophy concluded.

    Like

  61. Dompey September 24, 2015 at 7:24 PM #

    David let me say this lastly and for those folk who knows a little something about moral philosophy: the issue surrounding the Death-Penalty here both pros and cons, involves two school of moral-reasoning: Consequentailist- Moral- Reasoning and Categorical-Moral – Reasoning. Now, Consequentialist Moral Reasoning entails the results from one taking a certain action, where as Categorical Moral Reasoning deals specifically with the action one takes.
    Now, I can elaborate to elucidate for those persons who may be prisoned intellectually by the two simple philosophical concepts.

    Like

  62. Bush Tea September 24, 2015 at 8:44 PM #

    @ Dragon
    Skippa …. Bushie would not normally engage at this level…. But it may be important to save you from yourself….🙂

    Thai is not a MORAL position.
    It is a childish, emotional, piece of idiocy that is akin to the ‘moral’ position that there should be ‘peace and goodwill among all peoples’ and that ‘we should all live in peace and harmony.’ in short…
    A lotta shiite.

    What moral position what?!?

    ‘Moral positions’ depend on the overall design intent… You heard what Jesus told those fellows…?
    “….I came not to bring peace ….BUT TO BRING A SWORD.”

    A little thought should tell you that it is quite possible to conceive circumstances where, out of LOVE and unselfish devotion to someone, the RIGHT thing to do may be to kill them.

    ….or that out of love and devotion to others, THE RIGHT thing to do may be to kill someone else …like some drug-crazed moron who attacks your family at home…

    …or like TRUE LEADERS exercising the authority given them, and protecting the lives and goodwill of law-abiding and trusting citizens against evil animals.

    The REALITY of this world is such, that sensible countries need an army….. and may well have to use it …. or end up like the Arawaks….

    Boss.. don’t mind AC and Dompey hear?
    …try to stick with topics that you actually understand….
    If they did that …there would be great silence in the land….

    Like

  63. St George's Dragon September 24, 2015 at 8:53 PM #

    @ Dompey
    “Killing people is wrong whether it is called murder or state execution.”
    If you read the trail of comments properly you will see that it was me, rather than Bush Tea, who said this.
    Why do I believe this? Because taking human life is morally wrong, in any circumstances.
    State sponsored execution (murder) reduces us to to being murderers ourselves.

    Like

  64. St George's Dragon September 24, 2015 at 9:26 PM #

    @ BT
    There might be circumstances where someone needs to kill an attacker to save others “in the heat of the moment” but in general, we have ceded retribution to the state.
    Nowadays, there is no need for state killings because we can an incarcerate people for life.
    An innocent question – do you have any moral beliefs?

    Like

  65. Dompey September 24, 2015 at 9:27 PM #

    St. George’s Dragon

    You have to have a more valid explanation than the merely fact that you believe the death penalty to be wrong because it makes us murders.

    You could at least based your reasoning on the fact that you object against the death penalty because of the inhumane way the state put convicted murders to death, to give your argument at least a foot to stand on.
    Oh cares about what you believe; it is not enough to justify the abolition of the death penalty?

    You have to have a more valid explanation than the merely fact that you believe the death penalty to be wrong because it makes us murders.

    You could at least based reasoning on the fact that you object against the death penalty because of the inhumane way the state put convicted murders to death, to give your argument a foot to stand on.

    So you’re telling me that it was wrong for the state to put John Wayne Gacy to death, after he was convicted of killing more the twenty-five innocent young men?
    And that he should have live out the rest of his life in solitary confindment, watching cable TV and be served three square meal a day all at the expense of taxpayers?
    And all because you believe that it is wrong to murder people because it would make us murders?
    Well too best, I willing to be call a murder if I was given the job to put John Wayne Gacy to death.

    Like

  66. ac September 24, 2015 at 9:29 PM #

    And then again why the moral suasion is proper in its use against the death penalty it holds all to higher standard and a respect for life a life that only one of a higher being can designed and sustain.

    Like

  67. St George's Dragon September 24, 2015 at 10:08 PM #

    @ Dompey
    “You have to have a more valid explanation than the merely (sic) fact that you believe the death penalty to be wrong because it makes us murders (sic).”
    Why? That is exactly what I believe.
    “So you’re (sic) telling me that it was wrong for the state to put John Wayne Gacy to death, after he was convicted of killing more than twenty-five innocent young men.”
    Stealing is wrong. Is stealing a small amount ok? No it is not, it’s still wrong.
    Taking lives in executions is wrong. Why would it make a difference if the murderer had killed more than one person?

    Like

  68. Bush Tea September 24, 2015 at 10:15 PM #

    @ Dragon
    Moral beliefs…?

    TWO basic ones…..

    1 – BBE is THE boss; …the creator of everything our senses can handle; the key to everything that makes sense.
    So what BBE says ….goes.

    2 – Do to other persons as Bushie would like them to do to him were the situation to be reversed.

    Everything else is a subset…..🙂

    Like

  69. Bush Tea September 24, 2015 at 10:36 PM #

    @ Dragon
    “Stealing is wrong. Is stealing a small amount ok? No it is not, it’s still wrong.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    …so you have 4 hungry children at home and Stinkliar just terminated you from NCC so that he can have more money for Bizzy and his pals….
    Your family is hungry as shiite …and the youngest (and cutest) daughter has a high fever…

    Right next door, COW has a big potato field ….but he is not likely to be anywhere around for months…

    You actually think it is WRONG to dig a few holes of COW’s potatoes….?
    as opposed to watching your children starve to death…?
    Lotta shiite…!!!

    Now Bushie would openly dig two holes of potatoes …cause If Bushie was COW (and COW was Bushie) he won’t have a problem with COW taking some potatoes for his kids…🙂
    …and If Bushie (as COW) would have wanted a poor man to starve instead of taking a few potatoes, then Bushie (as a hungry poor boy) would LEAVE the damn man’s potatoes where they are… and let the children starve.

    Same shiite with execution….
    If Bushie came into your house and killed your son or wife, then he should EXPECT to be put to death when caught… if that is what he would expect to happen should you come into his home and do shiite…

    This is why you CANNOT judge another person…. cause you don’t know what they ‘would have done unto them’…..

    These issues are MUCH too complex to be discussing with AC and Dompey though…..
    LOL
    ha ha

    Like

  70. ac September 24, 2015 at 10:51 PM #

    unfortunately some who espoused Gods principles and beliefs only does so in a time when it is fitting and proper to trampled on peoples Human Rights, lest we forget one of the laws written among the ten commandments clearly and succinctly state Thou (ALL collectively You individually ) shall not kill. there is no more well define law without having any legal interpretation necessary with out a doubt speaks against,
    murder
    Either those who espoused the principles and teachings of the bible accept and adhere to the law or else they are self righteous parasites who only avails themselves with some practices not all the practices/laws and teachings of the bible,
    In other words they are fraudsters and hypocrites,

    Like

  71. ac September 24, 2015 at 10:55 PM #

    hey bush shit oppose what i say i bet your defense is so weak rather than u safely hide under the cover of pot shots, lol Ha HA

    Like

  72. ac September 24, 2015 at 11:07 PM #

    bush shite you are trying to infuse a hypothetical to dissuade a moral stance one which is rooted in the bible. Firstly a diligent and dedicated loving mother would not wait to eleventh hour to feed the baby, starvation is not automatic it has several stages beginning with hunger and in that case a mother would first seek legitimate alternative methods of finding food rather than stealing a potatoe and having to end up in jail and taking the risk of losing the child,.
    You always come up with these ridiculous examples believing that all on BU are over ninety years and senile

    Like

  73. Hants September 25, 2015 at 6:57 PM #

    Another. We have a problem.

    “The name of the man has not been released, but Cobbler said the man was shot by two masked assailants around 3 p.m. at Bucks, St Thomas.”

    Like

  74. Bush Tea September 25, 2015 at 7:41 PM #

    @ Hants
    Boss… we have HAD a “problem” now for some time..
    What you are seeing now is not a ‘problem’. It is the beginning of the ending…

    Blatter’s ass is grass
    CAHILL’s ass is grass..
    The EU’s ass has been overrun with shiites…
    Sir Cave has returned to his old modus operandi…
    ….and a blood moon is due.

    WHAT NEXT NUH…?

    Perhaps Zoe has been praying fervently for “….thy Kingdom come…”

    Like

Join in the discussion, you never know how expressing your view may make a difference.

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: